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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. This is episode 760.

Today I'm going to be doing an after dark episode with Jonathan. And Jonathan reveals so much about his life and his life with type one diabetes that I don't rightly know how to title this episode. It's definitely an after dark though, you're gonna have to listen to find out more. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan, or becoming bold with insulin. If you enjoy this after dark episode, there are almost 30 others ranging from drinking to weed smoking, eating disorders, drug use everything. You can find a complete list of them on the Juicebox Podcast Facebook page in the feature tab, or go into your podcast player and search juice box. One word podcast after dark after dark two words they should all pop right up in front of you. By the way, I'm looking for a serious weed smoker with a great a onesie to be on the show. Reach out if that's you if you enjoy the Juicebox Podcast and moreover enjoy that it's free and plentiful. You have a few people to thank for that those people are the advertisers Dexcom on the pod G vo Capo pen, the Contour Next One blood glucose meter us med touched by type one. And in pen from Medtronic diabetes. You can find a list of all the sponsors at juicebox podcast.com Or in the show notes of your podcast player. But today's episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by Omni pod five. Learn more about the Omni pod five at Omni pod.com forward slash Juicebox Podcast is also sponsored today. By the Contour Next One blood glucose meter get the blood glucose meter that my daughter carries. Yes. Tour next.com forward slash juice box.

Jon 2:28
Okay. My name is John. I'm a type one diabetics living on the East Coast for 43 years. And I'm a social scientists and musician dad recovered alcoholic and drug addict and currently am suffering through autonomic neuropathy and gastric release.

Scott Benner 2:54
Okay. Well, that just gives us plenty to talk about, John. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. How old were you when you're diagnosed?

Jon 3:02
Three years old.

Scott Benner 3:03
Wow. 14 years old. Is that? Is that 82?

Jon 3:07
Ah, 7979. Wow.

Scott Benner 3:12
Oh, I'm sorry. I did the wrong math. 79. Okay. Three years old. 1979. Diagnosed back then. I think we know the story, right? You were using? Probably, gosh, regular. Did your parents ever talk to you about this? You know what it was like? It was?

Jon 3:32
I really I have there's vignettes of it that I remember. There was there is a series of events. The first was that my father's mother had passed away. And it was when we were transitioning from moving in a transition. You're moving from Texas to Michigan. And on the way I got really sick. So we had a family member just die. And you know, I got really really sick. And shortly after recovering from that virus I was peeing all the time, just constantly urination Bedwetting, and these kinds of things, right. So my parents didn't really know what was happening from and they did not talk about it. They actually use like corporal punishment to try to get me to stop urinating know that kind of thing. They were kind of fundamentally like you're not adjusting to the stressful time like you should you need to keep up mentality. They were they were under a lot of pressure to so they use a little force to try to get things calmed down, but it just wasn't turning around. Right.

Scott Benner 4:46
You were three for perspective. I was three. Yeah, yeah. Gotcha. Are you there? Are you there first kid. No chance. No, I'm in the middle in the middle. Alright, yeah. Okay. So yeah, so when when hitting you didn't make you stop paying then what happened?

Jon 5:03
Well, we ended up fortunately we ended up in Michigan, we were in Northwest Michigan, which now has just exploded. If you've if you've ever been up there, there's a lot of Great Lakes brings in a lot of people, a lot of Clearwater pride around this time there was not that many people there. So fortunately for us, there was a doctor who was affiliated with you of them. And so as soon as they brought me in, he knew he was like, type one diabetes. Yeah, let's get him checked immediately. That quick?

Scott Benner 5:40
Yeah, real quick. Yeah. John, does the microphone go any closer to your mouth?

Jon 5:43
Sure. Sure. I can position. How's that? Is that better?

Scott Benner 5:48
I'm not sure on these your talk for a minute. But the doctor just upon seeing you thought this is type one,

Jon 5:55
running down the symptoms of what had happened and the duration he was just, you know, we that's the first test we need to run. Right. Okay. And it just was, you know, top of his list. And you have am, as I came to understand, it always had a pretty good med med program. So that was not surprising. In reflection, I was like, wow, we really got lucky because this was kind of the boonies, where we moved, I say, I was just out back, rural Michigan. And so I ended up in the hospital, and on IVs, and things and I remember the beds, the beds were really interesting, because it was kind of I couldn't figure it out, they had the bars to keep you from rolling out. So it looked kind of like a cage. But to me, it looked playground ish, I remember having that thought. And my folks were just devastated. Like, I have vignettes of watching my mother, like, be hit with waves of just just emotion falling apart, I don't know what kind of name to put on, it just kind of really rocked her. And getting pep talks from my dad, like, we're gonna have to deal with this. You know, I'm gonna give you this injection, it's going to happen every day, you know, we had to go through them learning how to inject insulin. And fortunately, the doctor was really, really honest on his toes. And he was familiar with treatment at that time, which was very routine based portions of food timing of insulin, you know. But other than that, it was like p&l sticks. Yeah. If you tried to do move outside of the bounds of the of the program. Um, so yeah, those are the first memories.

Scott Benner 7:56
Right? That's fascinating that you recall anything from that time? Really? Yeah. I don't even I don't know. I'm starting to wonder even about my memories in general, I'm starting to think that my memories are just from photos that I see more frequently than other photos. I don't even I don't even know like I you know, I key in on certain things that happened when I was younger that I feel like I remember. But now if I look back, there's a photo of it. And someone told me a story about it. And it's just very interesting how that all how that works. Because I don't think I remember a damn thing from when I was three years old. Not

Jon 8:34
at all. Yeah, yeah. It's not a lot. But he's, you know, these these moments were like, really, really high stress. And the information is bolstered. Very verified to asking questions about it. Like I've hit my parents. I've been like, do you recall? Was this true? What was you know, what happened? Did? Was mom unable to give me that first shot herself?

Scott Benner 9:01
Stuff that you think you remember? You're not sure of them? They? Yeah, they can kind of come in and back it up for you one way or the other?

Jon 9:07
Yeah. Yeah. They verified it. I mean, at the same time, you know, I'm a really, really delicately wired individual.

Scott Benner 9:17
How so? How so just

Jon 9:20
while just stress has always been a prime component in my foundation. So my attention, you know, with your average stress, your response comes like a hyperfocus. Attending to things in your environment. And I've always been a guy who's looking for the next hit to come, you know. Even just meeting people like I pre I Bolus before we were talking because talking to strangers will shoot me up to 200. If I

Scott Benner 9:54
don't, you're anxious right now. Am I right?

Jon 9:58
We always Yeah, just Talking to people right could be us playing guitar in the park and harmless 91 year old man came to talk to me four days ago and my blood sugar shot up to 200 You know, always due to anxiety always been like that. As long Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's, uh, that borrowed that phrase from really, really nicely. I thought that was a good way to put it that yeah, just really delicately wired. Like,

Scott Benner 10:32
no, I understand what you mean. I do. So. So this is your whole life, diabetes, and you're doing things very old fashioned ways. I would imagine you don't get to faster acting insulin for probably cheese. 10 years maybe? Yeah. Is that right? Yeah, I

Jon 10:53
was on, you know, pure pork. You know, NPH long, you know, the story of the waves. And the timing the waves of peaks and these kinds of things and eating around them. Yeah. And blood testing only happen when you went to the hospital for a really long time. Right?

Scott Benner 11:14
in that in that 10 year timeframe. Did you ever experience dangerous lows or anything like that?

Jon 11:22
Constantly, constantly. Night terrors were a regular occurrence? And you know, a couple of seizures

Scott Benner 11:34
from low blood sugars. Yes, yeah.

Jon 11:37
Yeah, these kinds of things. And by the time we hit pubescence, it really, really, really got hectic.

Scott Benner 11:46
Is this win? Like, is this when like, the other part of your story kicks in? Like I'm trying to figure out? I'm looking at the things you talked about when you first came on? And, and the list of things that you sent me here? You know, so, like, it looks like drugs and alcohol. Was there some self harm?

Jon 12:05
Yes. Yes, yes. I've carved things into myself in high school, attempted suicide, three occasions?

Scott Benner 12:19
And when does that when does that begin for you? Like, when does that turn happen?

Jon 12:24
Um, you know, I think it's just the bag got too heavy, but I was aware of it filling pretty early on. You know, I think the circumstances, I don't want to point the finger of blame at anybody, because humans are just really, really complicated. And if you're around long enough, I think some of those knots become on tie, right? So always hold out. Hold out for hope. But, you know, my dad was like, Vietnam vet and former police officer who had gotten two PhDs in psychology. So he's, like, really complex individual, he's really, really violent. You know, my mother. And her family did not get along, there's not like a lot of support. There's a lot of silence and willpower. And for a person kind of composed, like I am, that just doesn't work really well. Like I would say, I would characterize myself as a tough individual, and, you know, have a deep well of willpower, but the use of force threats, you know, these kinds of things like I've never been about that, right, but that was in the house a lot of time and that started filling the bag up and it was diabetes centric, you know. So like I remember i i still like a bear claw. Okay, out of it wasn't Dunkin Donuts at the time was the different donut company that later became Dunkin. But I still a bear claw and I remember you know, getting picked up by the throat and slammed into the drywall and breaking even punches thrown in my head Chuck across the room, you know, that kind of thing. For you know, getting out of the routine, stepping out of the routine.

Scott Benner 14:33
And you can you tell me how old you are around that

Jon 14:38
as like eight or nine. Okay,

Scott Benner 14:40
so you stole a doughnut. And you got you got your ass kicked?

Jon 14:46
A Yeah, I think I think as theft is, isn't it? I mean, I don't know why I characterize it as stealing. I gotta think on that one. But it was communal doughnuts for the family.

Scott Benner 14:56
Oh, wait a minute. Oh, I'm sorry. John, I Had you like a ninja slipping into a donut shop? Yeah. So this is at the house. This is just a box of doughnuts.

Jon 15:08
Yeah, this is a box of doughnuts. It's a community pile. I don't have no idea that's interesting that I was like I stole it. But it was it was the family box of doughnuts. And I was like, today's the day, the bear claw was mine. I'm gonna taste what that glaze does. And so I took it out of the box, and I stuffed it under my shirt, which is really uncomfortable with all that. And my dad's like, he was like, intelligence officer, you know, and he's a former cop. So he like stopped me from the woods watching me pick my head out to eat it. Right. And I heard in the leaves crunched and I chucked it under the stairs at the back of the back door. We had not built a patio yet. This is when stairs I just chucked it like a Frisbee right? He calmly walked over and picked it out, looked at it. He's like in the house. went up to the room and just Yeah, I got beat up a little bit. For that.

Scott Benner 16:14
John, do you think? Well, a couple of questions. Sure. Were there always doughnuts in the house and you just weren't allowed to have them?

Jon 16:23
As I got older, and the science evolved, you know, because your time during this era. Your even your Basal dose had a long contours still does. But but we're talking hours. Yeah. Right. So you can't stack insulin. You know, there wasn't advice, right? Because then then you're like, you're going to the waves are gonna double up on you. It's gonna get closed out and you're gonna just die. Yeah, get pounded. Right. So there's no adjustment. So back in this time, that was the program as things evolved. I was like, allowed plain doughnuts.

Scott Benner 17:04
So in the in your memory? Is it the is it the taking of the donut? The sneaking, is it the eating something that they thought he thought was going to impact you poorly? Or was it him losing a doughnut? Like do you have any context for what he was mad about?

Jon 17:25
I think it's fear. You know, if I look at I think if I look at you know, the way a lot of our people are wired. Fear is a driving thing. And and it's a regulator. And it's adapted to keep control. And I believe that he saw me as a something that needed to remain viable and that I was compromising my own viability.

Scott Benner 17:57
Okay, so eating the Doughnut was going to hurt you. He needs to scare you into not eating that doughnut, precisely. But you describe yourself as needing the exact opposite input from somebody.

Jon 18:10
Yeah, it kind of, you know, again, it's the 80s We had neighbors doing cocaine and we didn't know it. You know, like, there was a bunch of stuff going on with adults. Bootstrap theory was huge, running rampant. You know, like, pull yourself up. You know, Swartz, Nagar and Rambo are like, on TV, right? They're all like, pumped up. And like be a man do it. So there wasn't a lot of talking. There wasn't a lot. A lot of coaching.

Scott Benner 18:41
Yeah, no, I was alive then to John. I know.

Jon 18:46
Yes, yeah. Yeah,

Scott Benner 18:48
I'm aware of, of how force was used to, I guess, create compliance. And then compliance was somehow seen as the end result, like nobody was trying to teach you anything or or change your mind. They were just trying to put you in a position where you wouldn't do it again.

Jon 19:13
Yes. It does. Yeah, it's absolutely true. And the I think the the ancestral culture feeding into that, too, was one of children not really being led, like you're working on the farm. Accident. So are your teachers. Right? Yeah. You know, lose a finger. It won't happen again. This was not outside the realm of everyone's experience. Yeah,

Scott Benner 19:43
it is an interesting conversation. It's not really for today, but that, as the world gets easier, and people's lives get easier, they do have fewer and fewer teachable moments. And there is no one I mean, in another generation or so there won't even be enough. I get the way I'm saying this is gonna come off wrong for a second. I'm not saying we need more of your dad. I'm not saying that. But what I am saying is that guys, like your dad are gonna be gone pretty soon. Yeah, you know what I mean? And, and maybe that's good. And maybe it's a, maybe it would have just been better if your dad would have understood better how to handle you, but still had a kernel of that idea in his head of, you know, you do need to teach people to how to how to steal themselves up and how to how to be responsible for themselves. Like there's a balance in there. Obviously, we don't want we don't want responsibility and fortitude to come from you ending up in the dining room from the den. You don't I mean, but, but but but somebody, but where does that come from? I'm a parent. And I, I've wondered about it for years, like, Where do my kids get their experiences from? And now, you know, every kid you talked to seems to say that they're anxious, or they feel stress. And, and I mean, I don't, I didn't know what anxiety or stress was, I'm sure I had it. But I wasn't aware of what it was as a child. I mean, if you would have asked me as a kid, do you feel anxious? I don't know that I would have known what you were talking about. And now I don't think you can find a kid who is not aware of that.

Jon 21:23
Yeah, that's, you know, to be honest, I didn't know I was anxious until 10 years ago, I don't know what that was called. Yeah, the vernacular, the attention, the coaching the, in the conditions, you know, to treat it, to deal with it, acknowledge it, you know, all those things have changed drastically,

Scott Benner 21:45
right? And so there's a moment in your life where someone, you needed someone an adult, to see your situation? And say, Wow, John, is I mean, I don't know what they would have called it back, then they probably would have said, John looks nervous, you don't even know or something. I don't know what word they would have used. But he could use a hand here. And not a hand in his head, you know, but but a helping hand. And then when that doesn't come, is that when you start self medicating yourself?

Jon 22:14
Well, it just Yeah, I think, you know, I didn't I don't know I kind of read resigned myself, in part, I had these. Every time I was hospitalized, I had these conversations with myself. You know, I had some rough stretches that ended up in the hospital, I would have these conversations about tapping into my own will to persevere, to get myself through it. And every time I did that, I took more mental responsibility off my parents, because I saw how it impacted them. You know, they're like missing work or their stress. Or they'd be like, you're sick again, you know, this kind of thing. And I was like, well, that's not good for me. And it's not good for them. Yeah. So I'm just going to go ahead and do it. I never thought that it was anyone else's responsibility or hoped for that, or, and not necessarily. Responsibility isn't the best word. But I never thought I needed help. You know, at the same time, I would find myself sometimes going to bed saying Help, Help Help Help Help over the, you know, the over periods of

Scott Benner 23:26
time, just under your breath, really? Just under your breath. I need some Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jon 23:30
And you know, I was having panic attacks, right. And I'm like, I don't but I didn't know what that was. But I would say that or you know, had these little spurts of compulsive behavior right?

Scott Benner 23:41
For instance. Give an example

Jon 23:45
well, just with having conversations in my head about how I didn't do something right or control the situation well enough bad grade was late. Pick the wrong belt shoes aren't tied and start talking to myself you know, so I was not really well received socially. Okay, no, and under those conditions I just I thought that the way forward was just You just continue to well through it and you'll be alright. Yeah. Well, I think it would have been ideal to have an adult there to be like hey man

Scott Benner 24:25
Yeah, I'm asking in hindsight like what does the alternative to I mean, obviously what you were told just get get get past it get over it for keep fighting. But do you have any gift children now yourself? I do. I have to All right. So what would you tell them in that situation? If they were in your situation?

Jon 24:46
That you my first thought was was to just not even have them in that situation? I would, I would never create conditions or be like, I'd be like if you encounter any of these, right? Well, what if they Toxic ideas get get out of there. And well, what if they just felt like they were failing something? And it was that it does happen?

Scott Benner 25:07
Yeah, right.

Jon 25:09
Yeah, that's I just tell them that failure is the is very, very significant and important part of life, it's like, embrace it holy.

Scott Benner 25:20
Do you think people believe that when you tell them that?

Jon 25:23
No, but the, I think over the years, what's theoretically turned out to be true is if you have it in the body, somewhere where they can experience it in their body, I'm not talking about abuse, like hating people, like you feel bad, you know, bad stimulus. But fortunately, both of my kids are athletes. My son's a rock climber, for example. So he knows about process and he'll, you know, hit. Don't try to tackle and problem on the rocks. And it'll take him sometimes two or three weeks of falling off just trying to get that one hole. Yeah. But then he finally sends it. And if I feel like if you have things like that in your life to, for me, the physical component was huge to actually embody it, the process of failure and transforming that into an understanding, I don't want to say success, just an understanding of what wasn't there before and how you move forward. And that's great. And both the kids have that. And they have me on the side, saying what I just said to you, and I really verbose and annoying. So I you know, that's another thing. I think that adds stress to him. You know,

Scott Benner 26:49
you think you talk too much. Oh, yeah, way too much. Do you have a feeling like you know, how things can go wrong? And you want to make sure people understand what those pads are? So they don't take them?

Jon 27:03
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's definitely part of

Scott Benner 27:08
the fuel. It's crazy, though. Because they still have to have their own experiences.

Jon 27:12
They can't fall out of the tree no matter what we do. Yeah. John, it's one of the real,

Scott Benner 27:18
it's one of the real shortcomings of human beings, is the thing is that they can't just be pointed backwards for five seconds and said, Hey, look, do you see this tail of, you know, of Whoa, here, don't do that. If you don't do that you can skip this whole part of life and move on to this thing. And, and we can't we can't do that. Like, it's just not, you know, it's not, I don't know, it just doesn't work for some reason i You can you can explain things. Try to put them into context. You can, you know, bring them up in the moment when they happen. And still at all, I don't think that in that moment, you can turn someone ship for them. I think, you know, I think you can show them the you can show them the skyline, right? So they can look out and and see the what is it the horizon line and think, Okay, well, maybe there is something out there that I can't see right now. But he might be right, that's the direction to go in. And you have to, you have to hope that something you say today impacts them in the future, because it just very nothing works like a television show. Like nobody has an aha moment where they're like, Oh, my God, the old man in the park was right. I could go home and apologize to my mom right now. Yeah, that just doesn't work. But at the same time, you know, I heard you say it earlier, you tried to put your dad in the context, you know, veteran of a terrible of a terrible war, and a police officer on top of that. So his job was even to tell people what to do. And in his line of work, I'm gonna guess if people don't listen, they die. And, and if you're forceful enough with people they listen, those seem like those were probably his his lessons.

Jon 29:05
Yes, yes. And the longer you're at, I think, the longer that you're in that position, and that's in the exact account. And I think it's, you know, the longer you're in it, the more you're going to get burned out. Your patience is going to shorten it, I'm sure. Do you think yeah, it happened to him? Yeah. Do

Scott Benner 29:26
you think he had PTSD? From fighting? Oh, yeah.

Jon 29:29
We used to, you know, I used to come out to use the bathroom at like, 3am. And he'd be crouched behind the couch looking for Charlie. Oh, my God, you know? Yeah. You know, and my mom would have to come out and wake him up. If you went up to him and public without signaling like, Hey, Dad, if you just touched him, you'd have an elbow. Two inches from your face. He

Scott Benner 29:54
was he was always ready to fight. Yeah,

Jon 29:56
yeah, yeah, yeah. You just you know, Oh really, really tightly wound for good reason.

Scott Benner 30:06
Yeah, I'm not sticking up for him, John, but you put me in that jungle and have people shoot at me I'd be tightly wound so yeah, yeah, so yeah, absolutely yeah. So when so what comes first? Does the self harm come first or does the drinking come first

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well, just kidding. Drinking, right.

Jon 34:29
Yeah, yeah, you know, there was like, the bad guy to fool and the agreements that I was making about taking responsibility for myself and taking it away from other people mentally, you couldn't hold it up, couldn't hold it up. And there was all this new information, you know, and I was already aware, like, especially like, you take your common primate experience of being like, I'm attracted to that person. Like, you know, girls, right This kind of thing. I felt like a little bit like Frankenstein's monster, like that thought setting, you know, the conflict between transforming nature and nature's expression, should I be here? Or should I not? We're messing around, we're harvesting, you know, animal body parts to make fluids for you. And why? You know, this kind of thing.

Scott Benner 35:25
You had good real thoughts about that. You were supposed to not exist.

Jon 35:31
Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was like, my body's trying to kill me. And why are we fighting it? Yeah. And then I started reading the literature, you know, the, the, you know, alienation conflicts with modernity, right? Transforming nature and transforming ourselves and the consequences. Let's start diving into that when I was like, 13. And then right about then I started stealing cigarettes from my mom. And this is night, we, you know, behind all of this, we're talking about peeing on sticks and like really poorly calibrated blood meters, right.

Scott Benner 36:12
So not only are you having an existential ideas, 13 Which by the way, you might have been the only 13 year old that shouldn't have had a library card, but that's fine. But on top of that, your day to day slog is, it's not fun. And it's not particularly helpful to you either, because it sounds like your blood sugars are bouncing all over the place.

Jon 36:35
Oh, man. Yeah, that was a significant side of rebellion. I have a friend still who's you know, I'm 46. He's 46. He's like, you still eating peanut m&ms, because I used to sneak down in m&ms Whenever we get out of the house, like, I would have the money in my pocket, you know? And who knows, I know now what that probably did to me mentally. Yeah. Because again, the body is just primary, like, being able to have the most optimal state of affairs inside. And in terms of like, your just physical baseline, just, it's so important. And extends to everything. I believe that. And back then I just, I had no concept. So as doing that, stealing cigarettes, and you know, listening to Jimi Hendrix, constantly playing guitar, learning how to play Jimi Hendrix. And then so marijuana came in through the door. And then it was just off to the races. I was supposed to go to college and gotten this huge conflict with my father. And mind you. I was so mentally steeled that I was alone. And this was my deal that people used to, you know, like, yell at me threaten me at this point. And I'd be like, just ignore, you know, and they'd be like, this punishment, that punishment. Like I don't even care. Go ahead.

Scott Benner 38:10
Right. You're an island and they can't touch you.

Jon 38:14
Yep. Right. Yep. It's, I'm alone.

Scott Benner 38:17
It's interesting that that started out of your concern for your parents. And then to see where it went to, is disturbing, really, you know, in hindsight, as a person who raised children, so at first, you're like, let me just, this thing's a mess. It's a mess. For me, it's a mess for them. While I'm like just make it a mess for me cut them a break. And then obviously, you're too young to take on all that on your own. You needed other people to help shoulder the burden for you. And, and then by the time you realize you couldn't do it, it was you didn't have anywhere else to move the load to know so you had to find a way for it to feel lighter without putting it down. I mean, yeah, yeah.

Jon 39:03
Yeah. Yeah, that's accurate. Okay. There wasn't even a language. I couldn't even tell you like, this is just too hard. Yeah. There's just no everything was just wallowing in

Scott Benner 39:14
your a teapot with no with no place for the steam to come out.

Jon 39:18
That's it. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. Wow. It really escalated and, and I started having these kind of see scenarios, play out with the parents where we would just say, my mother would be like, I can't deal with him. My father would be like, my father was out on the road like having affairs and working 60 hours a week. So some when he came back, he was like, I'm not dealing with this.

Scott Benner 39:50
Yeah, I'm given other ladies babies with diabetes. Give me a second here.

Jon 39:54
Yeah, it just, you know, you're just like, my god. No one wants to deal and again, symptom of the same thing you just mentioned, like they didn't know how to get rid of their own skin. They didn't even know. If I asked my mother now, if she was ever anxious, she'd be like, no, no,

Scott Benner 40:15
but she was constantly. She's a case. Yeah, sucking on those cigarettes and trying to keep it all together. And I'll tell you, I know, this is generalizing, and everybody doesn't fit this category. But we might be the first generation of men, you and I, at our age, who grew up with some sort of an expectation that we had to be nice to the women we were with. But like, seriously, like, my dad did the same exact thing. Like the second like anything was like, well, this isn't fun. He's like, I'll just go have sex with different women instead of this lady. And, and it just, it was, it's commonplace. I'm not certain it's not commonplace. Now. I'm not, you know, I don't know. I do know people who I mean, I know cheating still fairly. You know, I'm sure it happens. I don't know if it's a coin flip as to whether or not you're being cheated on. But I know you have a decent chance of it happening. But that idea of that that time, it's just something that people won't know if they weren't there. Like there was a time I think I've said it on here before but my, my dad disagreed with something I was saying, I don't even remember what it was. And he wanted me to agree with him. And I held my ground. And he just hit me, and then would ask me after he hit me each time, if I changed my mind or not. Oh, man. Sounds pretty bad. Yeah. And then I fell like I tripped. I think he hit me once and I stumbled over coffee table maybe. And I ended up on the floor. And I remember thinking, Oh, well, here's some respite. He can't reach me. But then he just decided to use his foot instead. And it was and I remember looking up at my mom, who was just in a corner scared out of her mind. And I thought, well, she's not going to help me. And now I have to make a decision. Am I going to tell him what he wants to hear? Or am I going to? I mean, I already took it. Like, why would I give up now? You don't? I mean? Yeah. And so I know how you grew up, man. Like, I don't know, as you're talking, I think to myself, I don't know why I didn't end up drinking in high. It's unfortunate.

Jon 42:21
You're unfortunate. I mean, like that. You're unfortunate that that hurts me to hear. And I don't mean that like you shouldn't have said it. But I mean, that just, I'm so sorry.

Scott Benner 42:31
Yeah, you have real context for it. Like that's just really rough, man. Yeah, no, I appreciate it. It's it's I do I appreciate your your your kind words. I don't know if I'm, I don't even know if Okay, is the right word. Yeah. Right. Like, all I know, is it made me not want to be like him in like that. And I tried very hard not to put that on my family as I got older. But I'll tell you that without my wife, there were pas I would have absolutely tumbled down, because I just didn't know what better way. Like I'd be surprised if the first time one of your kids got crazy. It didn't occur to you to smack them. Because it probably felt like what you do in that situation.

Jon 43:17
You know, those? I feel like those. Yeah, it's I feel like those there's a sense of of rebellion that drives my behavior now to try to transform the situation that it's definitely true. It's the chicken or the egg argument was I suppose to such talk to toxic scenarios, toxic and sense that they felt so far Well, to me that I wanted to change my life. Or if I just naturally was kind of like a peace loving guy. And I've, I've explored both and their extremes, you know, and what do you I just gotta, I just gotta say, I do not like seeing people get hurt. I just don't. I just never have it sickens me to think of not only powerless, powerless individuals, but even, you know, people that you don't like taking a hard hit. I'm just not wired like that.

Scott Benner 44:18
And, Jonathan, I can tell you that I saw, I witnessed my mom cry once after my dad left her. And that one experience that one evening of my life. I couldn't. I couldn't do that to a woman for anything. Yeah, I couldn't bring myself to do it. Like, I'm gonna tell you right now. If my wife was downstairs right now with 10 Guys, and a table full of blow and and lied to me every day about who she was, and then came to me and said, Guess what? I have sex with everybody in the neighborhood, and I'm a heroin addict. And I be like, I couldn't leave I couldn't like I know I couldn't. Because it just because I had that one moment. Like, I saw my mom crumble like she was lower than a person should be. And it broke her. And I don't want to be responsible for making someone feel that way.

Jon 45:18
Now, now me mean either I think that extends to kids too. You know, like, I intuit that especially my son is a lot like I am a lot of the males in the family seem to have that kind of fear based thing is it cultures of biology, I, you know, probably a little bit of both. But the experience of those things, seeing scenarios, you know, like you're describing human through all you know, and with the OCD and perfectionist contour that came with the weird mental exercises to survive. I've just pushed myself to try to stay as far away from that ledge as I can. And do I see it there when the anger really rears up? Yes. Have I raised my voice Absolutely. ever put my hands on people or wanting to you know manhandle them in any way. Never. Never. I just and you know, contact sports violence sports, were a part of my therapy to try to find out who I was to later after I got sober.

Scott Benner 46:44
Well, when did tell me about a little bit about that, that journey. So you said cigarettes weed, then it exploded? From there for context would you go to next.

Jon 46:56
Um, so I had this big fight with my dad. And I ran away. I ran away, I actually took some stuff of his and I pawned it for drugs. And this was like when I was 18. And I ended up eating these mushrooms. And going out in this cherry field and walking around for like six hours, saying, I just want to be good. I just want to be good. I just wanted to get when I came down, I was like, I can't do that here. And this was actually the second time I left first time, I just ran away to East Lansing. And then started smoking and drinking and running with my college aged kids and then realizing like they had lives, they had classes. I thought I'm gonna go to college again. So I tried to last a semester in community college that didn't work out, I ended up in the cherry field on mushrooms. And you know, with them with a mantra, you know, I just want to be good. I just want to be good. And call up a friend in Arkansas that I had met at this semester of school was like, Do you have room for me? And he's like, Yeah, and I took more mushrooms and LSD and hopped on a plane and left. Got down there with $20 and you know, I'm still my parent's insurance fortunately. So I had access to medication. But then from there, I went to like a seven year period of playing in bands traveling across the country and ingesting, you know, all kinds of substances and primarily like hallucinogenics you know, and I had a friend who once we were talking about those days that and she had worked with a lot of people who use drugs and stuff. And she said Are you still there?

Scott Benner 49:17
I am. I'm listening intently. Sorry. Sorry. Don't be sorry.

Jon 49:24
She said you're always trying to get out of your body while most people are trying to live with it or get it get into it, you know, experience life with their friends, be young. Find out who they are and what they want to do and you are always trying to eject out of this they're like it's it but but you don't want to kill yourself. I say yeah, that sounds about right in meanwhile, you know, I'm talking about playing gigs where I've got this anxiety disorder and I eaten so much LSD that I couldn't see a foot in front of my face. And but I could hear myself playing the whole show on a mountaintop somewhere or like in some old commune from some hippies that ran away from the Vietnam draft in the 1970s, right? They had land real cheap in the Ozarks so they also not they're back at your dad. He was out killing commies these people were out partying in the woods. And so I chose them. And, you know, I would just be an all the while, you know, type one diabetic, you know, stuff I,

Scott Benner 50:49
I keep thinking about how poor your control must have been. As you're talking through all this, like, are you putting much effort into the diabetes at all?

Jon 50:59
The only thing that I did was I took long acting, I woke up, I took long acting, and then when I thought I had eaten enough. I would be like, Okay, that's a meal. There's bread on this plate here is that not not weighing not measuring, not counting cars, nothing.

Scott Benner 51:20
But a doctor was still giving you insulin. But were you seeing a doctor for any kind of regular checkups?

Jon 51:27
No, just once in a great while.

Scott Benner 51:30
give any idea what you think what your a one C was? Did you ever get one?

Jon 51:34
Never. No, never. During that time? I have no idea. I can't imagine it was really good. I mean, it was.

Scott Benner 51:42
I can't imagine either.

Jon 51:45
It was it was you know, I was like drinking stouts nightly, and just as high as you can get. And not, you know, I'm laughing but really, I shouldn't be dead. Yeah, know, like, it's, it's now some of the things that some of the consequences, it's not a consequence free story, because I did have run ins with the fire department, like I fought, I fought some of the guys on the Fayetteville Fire Department. And after having a seizure and passing out, that happened a couple of times, and you know, I take them a Christmas card and apologize. But I was just running around, do stuff like that I had. And placing bets, you know, placing bets. I remember we went up to the White Mountains and we were up on the top and I was like I've got these, you know, I've got some forces that are against me and my body and I cannot get them out. Taking all these mushrooms to try to vomit it out. And try to blow my consciousness out through the ceiling to see if I can get around and try to understand what it is like I can't to create it wants me to to not be here. Let's run the bet so stripped down naked. And they have like a rock lined driveway. And you know, you're talking about hundreds of feet down and death. They have a sign up there like this number this many people die here last year, and here's the total number of deaths. And I just ran on that rock wall being like, come on. You want me to fall off and plummet? Let's do this, right. I made it down to camp, you know, showed up out of my mind. Make it in the moonlight and everyone was like, Oh, yeah. Well, I guess everyone wants to you know, like, yes, you're supposed to be here, you know, after I explained what I was doing rambled on, but I was like out doing stuff like that. Not checking blood sugar is not seen in doctors. Yeah.

Scott Benner 54:15
Was that part of it from family was that part of it, too, was not paying attention to the diabetes. Part of you saying like, go ahead, take me if you want, or was that you just not even having any context for how to take care of yourself?

Jon 54:31
Oh, yeah, you know, there's the it's both I never looked I'm sure the the tools have evolved. And they were evolving then I didn't look into it. So there was an absence of context there and I definitely didn't have the awareness I have now what it's like to keep that good foundation in your physiology, right.

Scott Benner 54:52
So what happens then when when you try time and again to get taken and it doesn't happen? What time Is this around for you? Is it going to be a woman?

Jon 55:04
Ah, no, no, no, no. I mean, because at this time, you know, I've been asked about the promiscuity thing, right, like, Did you engage in high risk, you know, sexual behavior? And I was like, No, I didn't want to connect with anybody. I, and we lived through the 1980s, you know, as well, and the HIV AIDS, you know, threat and, and I saw what that did to people. Yeah, you know, and I was just horrified. I was like, Oh, my gosh, we're also vulnerable. The people are trying to connect and express themselves. And they're meeting this no, this is just, you know, so I was pretty locked down in that regard. So of all the trails that I could have taken to, like, reach out to a woman or a partner I did. It came down to me, not wanting to hurt people. I kept disappointing people because I came home and I went to Michigan, I got off all the drugs, but stuck to the alcohol. And I found myself on the back roads at night having bets like if this curve was to take me Go ahead. Like, I can't stop this.

Scott Benner 56:21
Yeah. Suicidal the whole time. Really?

Jon 56:25
Yeah. And just blacking out, you know, time traveling.

Scott Benner 56:29
Cake. Did you dad drank?

Jon 56:31
He did not really. He did not drink. He knew that. His biological father killed himself drinking when he was 29. Which is hard to do. Like you'd have

Scott Benner 56:43
to really? Yeah, it's an effort. Yeah.

Jon 56:47
So he was like, I'm not doing that. But we had alcohol, it's, you know, and all the branches? For sure.

Scott Benner 56:57
How old are your kids? 14 and 16 1416? How do you think they're shaping up? But who do you think they're good? I mean, like, what parts? Are you that are good? Are they keeping in? What things do you think they'll fight with?

Jon 57:15
You know, they have, they're definitely their own people. They're such their own people. I'm, I'm one of those dads, that's annoying. And how I wonder at them, like, they're, they're fucking incredible. They're really, really, really incredible. They are capable of things that I've never dreamed of. And I've kind of adjusted to this place of being along for the ride, because I know if I get ahead of it, and try to direct too much of it or inform it, I'm going to mess it up for him. But I'm a happy guide along the way. But that takes practice and upkeep, and they're just, they're so impressive. You're so impressive.

Scott Benner 58:07
What you made of, I'm just gonna say you made a big leap from your father. And it sounds like he made a big one. It's crazy, isn't it, but just having a tiny bit of context about your grandfather, makes you realize how far your dad came? Like, there must have been times in his life where he was like, at least I'm here. You know what I mean? Like I'm here trying to help. Yeah, he must have felt like he had done quite a thing. Getting from where he started to where he was, and but you've eclipsed that, obviously, how much of that? Do you think? I hear people talk about this all the time, but don't get to ask many people about it. Do you think? How much of that? Do you give credit to the psychedelic stuff? Do you think the mushrooms helped you get past this stuff? Or do you think it slowed you from figuring things out?

Jon 58:54
I've got a spliced view on it. Right? There's definite insights to be gotten from that. But there's trade offs. And since then, since not since dropping it, I've gotten more insights through exercise and breathing and breathing exercises and you know, a steady Hindu standard to Hindustani classical music and watch and listen and ask questions about people's process through that. And I was pointed to an interview with Ravi Shankar who said, In reflecting on what the hippies were doing, he said, Yes, you get insights, but it's a shortcut. It's a shortcut. Okay? It's too much information. It's, you know, a lot of people I think, and this is true for myself, and I'm not branding anybody anything or putting anybody down by I think a lot of people enter the experiment. And then they're looking for a culture to provide them a map through it or the possibilities. While they're engaging in that practice, and if you look to yourself, you're going to find yourself asking for some cultural references. And I think when you look to American society, some of those maps are pretty limited and can be kind of dangerous or disappointing. Some of them can be great, too. There's great experiences to be had. But it gave me some insight for sure. But there are definite trade off.

Scott Benner 1:00:36
Okay. Yeah, so, but so you, you went home, you stopped drinking? Because you felt like you were hurting people who you're hurting your mom? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And you go home to make it up to her.

Jon 1:00:56
It was, it was, it was just a family. It was my mom, it was my dad. It was everybody was it was it was this kind of like, You've disappointed everybody. We work so hard to keep you alive. You know, you've got this horrible disease, why do you keep scaring people? And why can't you stop? Like, that's a good question. I don't know why I can't stop. Right. So I was like, and then I had friends who were die. Okay, you know, I started hanging around, like, really dangerous people. Which sometimes music will make you do, there's like that. I guess it's always been there. It's not era specific. But, you know, I started hanging out, and I was not like, on their team, don't get the Don't get the wrong idea. But because I was musician, you know, bikers started coming around. And then it'd be like, well, we're having this gathering out the woods, why don't you come jam out there. And, you know, I saw people with like felonies like, slicing each other up and doing surgeries on foosball tables, you know, like being locked in, in a room and then have them making a vow of silence. And be like, we ever hear that you talk about this, you know, we're coming to get you, you'd like stuff like that. So, you know, there was just like, a lot of this dangerous energy that was ending up in these really, really bad consequences. And then I had friends who started to die or like, kill themselves. And I was like, I don't want to do that my family's hurting. I'm gonna go be an academic. This was like, after a tour out in New Mexico. And, you know, I had some insights there. And, and so it's like, well, college is going to fix it. But that didn't stop the drinking. So then it became really, really glaring that even if you're trying to live in a good way, or take a good line, or like, do a legitimate thing, by being an academic, you still can't stop your effed up behavior. It finds you. And so I went into a recovery program.

Scott Benner 1:03:18
Alright. And so when you go, so what's the timeframe between you fencing your dad stuff taken off and ended up in recovery? How long was that?

Jon 1:03:30
That had been nearly a decade.

Scott Benner 1:03:32
Wow. Yeah. So you came home at like, in your late 20s? Yes. Yeah. Your mom and dad's still together when you get there? Oh, yeah. Yeah. How long did recovery go? And did it work the first time or do you have to do it a number of times?

Jon 1:03:48
I never, I never. You know, I woke up hungover. And I was like, I never wanted to drink again. I used to have conversations and these would happen during like the suicide bouts to where I always like, I think my psyche is constructed like a voice chamber. Where I sound off to things and I'd asked questions, I'd be like, am I gonna make it through this? Are you gonna keep me here and be like, yes. You're not done yet. All right, wake up after odd on pills, right? Or the same thing with the drinking. Like, have you got this? Can you take this? I can't do this anymore. You're done. And I didn't drink again. And you know, the following year was cigarettes. Like I'm done with this. Yeah. You know, can you head can you take it and be like, Yeah, and I'm not calling out to any particular entity. It's just having that conversation. And yeah, I did that I went and I found community there for a while. But I also find myself attracted to really rigid personality. Is because that's what I came up with. So I learned a lot about that,

Scott Benner 1:05:04
like your father. Yeah.

Jon 1:05:08
I took on, you know, like sponsors, and people were really, really rigid. And I got a lot of help. But I also learned a lot about myself and where to let go, when to let go of the advice?

Scott Benner 1:05:25
Okay. One, you know, at what point do you think, oh, yeah, I have diabetes, I should probably check on that.

Jon 1:05:39
So it's always consequence driven. Okay, it was always consequent points driven, you know, so

I ended up out on the East Coast. Barely, I had gotten married. And that just was not going well. Two kids, and that was breaking down. separation process starts happening. And lawyers are looking to everything and the diabetes is on the forefront. Fortunately, I did not have an A one C above an eight at this time.

Scott Benner 1:06:24
Okay. So it was like a miracle.

Jon 1:06:28
It truly is. And they they had, you know, I saw I had lawyers who said, Well, you know, the average is they say that he's only at risk. If he gets above an eight. There's more nuance to that. Sure. Right. But a quick web search, we'll pull that up, you can find it. And, you know, that's when I was like, Alright, we got to keep this thing in check. But that put me on the search to try to start exploring my own physiology and the underlying mechanics and, you know, got into therapy, made a great met, met. Great therapist made an appointment, and she read out of the DSM, the diagnostic manual, the fourth edition, anxiety, definition of anxiety, and I was like, I have that. It's the first time I'm hearing that and then started reading up on that cortisol production, adrenaline dumps, all of this impacts blood sugars to all of you know, and started paying more attention. And then realizing that my emotional states are impacting my family, I need to get a hold of it. Right. But there was like an escalating decline going on. I had, you know, my eyes were still good, still passing those basic tests that you have with the doctors. But see, 2020 June of 2020. A couple of weeks out from some COVID related stuff. I was sudden wasn't my stomach wasn't empty. And like I'm throwing up in the ER, okay. And go to the My wife's phone, like, you go to that emergency room like fine. I get in there and the doctors like I think you have gastroparesis. And he prescribes Raglin it's like you need to follow up with a gastro. As specialists, yeah. And get this checked out. And we're going to notify your doctor was like, all right. And then there was a nurse there who is like in the trenches, battle scarred nurse from Boston. She's like, this is how it goes for you diabetics. That's the horrible Boston accent but I still remember how she said it. She was like, This is just This is it. Sad goes it's unfortunate but you're going to if this is, you know, like okay. And from there it was, you know, confirmed by two specialists. So your gastroparesis is seven

Scott Benner 1:09:27
Yeah. So your, your stomach is so ill equipped at this point to digest your food. Yes, you're vomiting because it's not going down? Correct. Yeah. Well, that'll definitely get you to the hospital. So did the medication help?

Jon 1:09:48
It helped in some respects that you know, I it brought up more questions so it induced motility but not much absorption So I would have food flush flush out and part of the idea, according to one practitioner that I've met with this is like, you know, a bad spark plug in your system. Sometimes if you get a new one in there and you and you and it connects, the rest will start firing up, their system will reset, you don't have to stay on reglan forever, right? So, give that a go. And she's a type one, two, she actually had like a, a transplant, okay? You know, so I leave what she said. But I kept dropping weight while I'm on the Raglin. And then about a month and a half into it, I started getting like tremors in my hand if I was taking it twice a day. So I was like, that's not good. We need to research the side effects. And she had mentioned side effects and I'm like, okay, for some people prolonged use can lead to some really bad stuff. You know it, what do we do to get the signal through. Because at that point, I had been also diagnosed with autonomic neuropathy, I had gait issues as well. Can't stand can't stand without swag and getting getting tipsy. And people just kept giving me these like Xerox of like, here's the foods that you can eat. And they would be like, black and white pictures of like, rice you know, are just like the soft foods. And I'm like, okay, and they're like, just eat less of it and do this and I'm just like, it's just a hope for the best thing like we're really driving without seatbelts now like I really I asked for it. I call it out now I got it. This really long notes. You know,

Scott Benner 1:11:51
there's given you a list of foods like let me let me try to guess. No raw foods. Nothing was skin low if you have low fat no cheese. low fiber to right. Yes. Yeah, yes. Okay. Stuff that will pass through easier. It Yes, it's your stomach. But now you're saying that that on top of the medication, the stuffs going through through so quickly? You're not getting nutrition from it either?

Jon 1:12:18
No, okay. No, not at all. And I'm slowing down and people are getting scared. My wife's like, What is wrong with you? And folks are starting to you know, you show up and they're like, II What are you losing some pounds you exercise and yourself and like, I'm not well. So I started reading up on it. And it's like, there's really not too many treatments for this generally. And I came across an article of a college athlete who had worked with a doctor at Cedars Sinai and he was a heart specialist because that's implicated in in anomic neuropathy.

Scott Benner 1:12:57
Yeah, can I go over that quickly? Or? I don't know autonomic neuropathy occurs when there is damaged the nerves that control automatic body functions can affect blood pressure, temperature control, digestion, bladder function, and eventually or even sexual function. So, yeah, that sucks.

Jon 1:13:21
Yeah, it's really, it's really, there's a lot there. There's a lot to be scared of,

Scott Benner 1:13:25
you know, you probably should have told God you meant right away when you ask them to take you.

Jon 1:13:31
You. That's how it works. Hmm. All right. Wiseacre.

Scott Benner 1:13:36
Yeah, sure. Does that I meant now, not slowly. The bags? Oh, that's crazy. So well. So that's only a couple years ago, you're saying?

Jon 1:13:49
Yeah, that was June 2020. And, and I wasn't getting a lot of answers. It was like this medication kind of hoped for the best. And the stories are that there's all these experimental treatments. They're talking about, you know, like electro stimulation of the brain stem, like being the next big medical intervention. And there's also a rise in it in the past couple of years and I'm seeing little kids, I mean, getting it early on and I'm like, Whoa, getting gastroparesis. Okay, you know, I'm just like this is a really supposed to be a long term thing and the treatments aren't there based on the people I'm talking to. So I ran across the article with the with a college athlete and she was like, I treat it with exercise and this practitioner and Cedars Sinai the heart specialist says keep doing it, and it's working. And she had according to the narrative that was published by by like a large media outlet is like seeing the something you know, She had been to Canada and done all these experimental drugs and all the stuff that was on her last leg before, he had suggested that she had gotten along relatively well and had a slow decline into it because of the exercise. So I was like, I'll take note of that, that started reading about aging as a male and nutrition requirements and all these kinds of things. And I eventually landed, to where I cooked everything in a crock pot, because it's almost like pre digesting it for you. And it's high protein bass, I discovered that a lot of the soft foods that were carb rich actually made the gastroparesis worse in the nausea worse, okay, I would have like, I started getting neuropathy in my hands and feet after eating, you know, bouts of it. And so I started doing that, and then created a schedule based on experimentation and trial and error where I start the day doing breath retentions which jumpstarts my system and gives me kind of like a reset, actually will turn my digestion on, walk, eat protein rich meals, two to three times a day, eat my weight in grams protein plus, and lifts at 10 o'clock at night. And I continue to drop weight, but have been holding out like 170 ish for maybe about five or six weeks. Visiting doctors and they're like, you you know, if you get down to 160 or below we're gonna have to talk. Agreed. But for now, I've been holding through there but do not have the gait issues I'm able to digest food and push it through my system and absorb it sometimes takes five or six hours for the stomach empty but it's working. And my one sees like a 5.2

Scott Benner 1:17:24
Well, you ever tried putting like a digestive enzyme with your meal?

Jon 1:17:28
Yes. Yes,

Scott Benner 1:17:31
that helps as well.

Jon 1:17:32
Yeah. Now I've run the controls you know with because my mom's like you she she's she's the first to the door with with you know the supplements kind of like I will try it. I believe that what's working what works best is connecting the signal from the brain to the body and engaging in problem solving activity physically, which is like weightlifting and the and the breathing. That's that's been the constant so far. If I don't do it ever run the controls. And then like, I'm not going to do and see what happens. I'm right back where I started. I don't even get in a day reprieve. Right. I will be in the yard throwing up more and start to get lose my balance. Yeah.

Scott Benner 1:18:36
Have you changed? Did you change your diet at all?

Jon 1:18:41
Yes, yeah. Yes, I had to because the carbs the carbs just made the symptoms worse. You know, I discovered that and then I was like, Alright, what's more dangerous to lose fat or to lose muscle? still lose muscle? Because then you're really bedridden. Yeah. And, you know, that is that is part of the channel that activates the channel. It's a direct signal to the brain. It's very fundamental.

Scott Benner 1:19:19
Through all this, you mentioned at the beginning of the problem that you thought your marriage was shaky, but then you mentioned her later. So has that been affected by any of this? Or have you figured something out? I remarried. Ah, picked up better person. I'm just kidding you. Okay, so the first marriage that you mentioned, did did dissolve and you're, you're someone else Now I say thank

Jon 1:19:45
goodness.

Scott Benner 1:19:45
Okay. Because you're married. Because you're married. You're dead.

Jon 1:19:50
I'm married. It was a I will just go ahead and say is difficult personality. Very difficult personality. but not for the kids.

Scott Benner 1:20:05
was the primary motivator, kids with you or with her now? Ah,

Jon 1:20:10
we had kids together. And and they ended up with me. Yeah, okay.

Scott Benner 1:20:17
Okay, so the two children, you talk about her from your first marriage? Correct gotchas. I understand. Wow, Jesus, Jonathan. That's a lot. Yeah, I Are you okay? Yeah, yeah.

Jon 1:20:30
Yeah. And it's all really, it's all really weird. You know, and I think that the one thing about it, especially think about how this relates to you and your mission. I remember the cutter episode, when you were talking about the describing all of these interviews, it reminded me of Mickey Hart's description of his drum timeline in his room. So the percussionist I, how it just became this kind of like, huge beast, right, it became an organism. Not not a beast, but an organism of its own. It's this kind of like running dialogue, and it's got all this different timelines associated with it, different cultures associated with it, including technology, including cultural orientations, personalities, all these kinds of things. And accessing that has been super helpful, because I just remember a culture of silence. And do it yourself and pick yourself up by your bootstraps, don't talk about it, try not to be weird in front of the other kids, all these other kinds of things. And I'm like, the resource that you've created, that you've co created, facilitated is just phenomenal. So like I'm doing okay, well, based on on my own metrics, right. Yeah. But But in talking about this with you, yeah, I'm doing really good. Good. Really, really good. Well, I mean,

Scott Benner 1:22:16
it's also nice to hear that you enjoy the podcast today, because I did get a review today that said that the podcast would be much better if I spoke less. So.

Jon 1:22:24
Come on.

Scott Benner 1:22:28
The first thing I saw this morning,

Jon 1:22:31
I don't say I don't I think you've got I think you're really wise individual and after, you know, after hearing, I'm a social researcher, too. I consider you a researcher. And I think like, you're used to the ebb and flow of conversation where things might go and and have great ideas about the information that needs to be put out there. And and while letting people beat them.

Scott Benner 1:23:02
I appreciate that. Thank you.

Jon 1:23:03
So I enjoy it. And I think it's a great I think about my mom, like anytime someone posts in there about a recent diagnosis, if there was even one yesterday or within the past couple days about a young person, I think nine getting gastric freezes. I really experienced the horror and yeah, just feel awful. I just feel awful. But then I'm like, you know how many awesome parents there are, who are just ready to help at the at a keystroke? And how much information in this backlog of expert advice and experience? None of that was around when I was coming up?

Scott Benner 1:23:48
Yeah, it would have been it would have maybe made a difference for you. That's for sure. Although, I mean, this whole thing got put on you pretty quickly at a young age. I mean by yourself, of course. But it sounds like but you know, it's certainly it's a two way street, your parents probably didn't know anything about it. There wasn't a lot of great direction. By the time there's any good knowledge about diabetes, the kind that was really going to stop, you know, things like this from happening in the future. Your parents were probably well out of it by then. Just it's hard to think about but you just it's bad timing. You're just diagnosed at a bad time, you know? Sure. Now, yeah. And now there's, you know, now there's just more there's more ways to talk to people. There's more people who are willing to say things out loud. And there's more people who are looking for help. So it's a kind of a golden age at the moment for for information to transfer back and forth.

Jon 1:24:50
It definitely it definitely feels that way. And it feels like that culture is even going to I still take daily injections. Um, I can't like, pumps just don't work for me, you have got like too much scar tissue and you know, like kinked, cannulas and all this kind of stuff. But you know, people have gotten so adapted to these new improved better ways for most people, that it's become a new vernacular, even going into the doctor's office. And it worries me to think about parents who parents and individuals who are diagnosed and I'd see what putting a lid on stuff has done in my own life for people around me involved in it. And for them to have a place to come to be able to hear other people tell their own story, but to just even vent get support, you know, about the end was school lunches, mental health, all these other kinds of things. What how do you put a price on that? Like, I've seen what people have done to themselves and how they've lasted without it. Snap? is typically not that good. Like, I'm grateful, man, I'm real grateful.

Scott Benner 1:26:14
No, I, I appreciate your saying. So because it's, it's very needed. And it's one of the last things you seem to be able to drag people towards, you know, it's, I think everybody feels like eight year old you. Like I can, yeah, I'll do it. I can do it. It's okay, I've got it. I somehow we get confused between being able to accomplish something, and having to ignore how it feels to accomplish it. If that makes sense or not like there, yeah, you can, you can be honest about what the process is doing to you. And still make it through the process. It's almost like people feel like if they give it a voice, that it'll run them over. And I feel like that the opposite is true.

Jon 1:27:02
That's a that's a really, really insightful.

Scott Benner 1:27:04
Yeah, I sentiment, but how do you make it? How do you make somebody believe that because once you open your mouth, it's going to happen, whatever's going to happen is going to happen. So they hold it inside thinking, I'll go with resolute resolute will work. And that, obviously, I mean, you said it so many times, right? Like the bag kept filling up, you didn't know it was filling up, he didn't know it was getting heavier, you didn't know what to do with it. And that's going to keep happening to you. To understand that you can you can take things out of the sack by just saying their name out loud, saying, you know, this is hard for me to do, and it gets a little lighter. Or I'm worried that I'm not going to be well for my whole life. And it gets a little lighter. Like saying those things don't doesn't make them come true. It's um, I know a person. If you joke about cancer, I realize cancer is nothing to joke about. But if somebody makes a flippant comment about cancer, there are people who get like, uptight like you've just wished it on somebody or that yes, it's going to happen now because you said it. You know what I mean? And I always respond to anything like that. I always say, Listen, if I was in charge of that stuff, I would immediately be joking about being taller and more handsome. Like not not, you know, I mean, I have no sway over whether or not a person gets sick, or is healthy or is happy, like What you say doesn't make things just appear. But I think people have that. I think they have that. It's not a fear. It's a it's a word that I've I'm usually not capable of coming up with. When you're scared of something happening isn't like a superstition, superstition, I can never think of that word Jonathan. And I always imagined I can't think of it because I so don't believe in it. I've never used it in context before. But people have such a superstition, that they don't want to say, I have diabetes, and I'm afraid I'm gonna get a complication. Or I'm afraid I'm gonna die alone at night or that no one's gonna want to marry me, or whatever the hell it is. They're afraid of. They don't want to say out loud, all those things weigh on them. And then it's almost becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because you can't take good care of yourself because you're so burdened. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah,

Jon 1:29:20
yeah. Yeah, I felt that personally. Absolutely.

Scott Benner 1:29:24
Yeah. I mean, and to look at it from the other side, if it happens to so many people that isn't that just the human trait. And if so, I don't know then is this the path like do you have to like willfully knock yourself off the path of human trait to doing what actually works? Like are we wired in a way that some that sometimes anti what we need?

Jon 1:29:54
Yes, this is Mary Shelley's predicament. Really? Guy Yeah, this is this is, you know, if are we creating a Frankenstein? You know, Frankenstein's monster are we messing with? What is nature in that context? And again, it's an outgrowth of a of a generational conversation like, yeah, you and I were never exposed to parsing those sentiments.

Scott Benner 1:30:23
No, no one would have thought about any of this. Now, the way of

Jon 1:30:27
men and women and you know, all the, like, these discrete categories are like Hemingway and sad marriages with booze, you know?

Scott Benner 1:30:39
No, it really is. I mean, it's kind of obvious, like, so if it's, if it's, if it's the Frankenstein problem, it's, it's, it's that problem psychologically, that you keep adding turmoil to your life, but just quietly in your head. And then you torture yourself with it, because you don't let it you don't let it go anywhere. You don't deal with it, or throw it away. And that and then, and then at some point, it becomes overwhelming. And you end up saying to somebody, I'm, I'm, I'm anxious, like, Well, yeah, well, no shit. You know, like, you know what I mean? Like, you've, you've stuffed these things into your head, maybe not on purpose, obviously. But you've stuffed all these problems in your head. And with the teapot analogy, you've given them nowhere to go. You're a powder keg at that point. Yeah, yeah. So there's

Jon 1:31:27
a lot of truth in that it just seems that what simplified it for me is that, you know, we're products of biology and culture and culture can get really, really weird and really strange, scary, it can produce feelings of disgust, so can biology. But at the end of the day, it's it's adaptations at adaptations are, what we're looking for. They have trade offs, and the trade offs are mental. Yeah. Now, I don't feel like I'm messing with nature anymore. And I have to keep it a secret.

Scott Benner 1:32:02
Yeah, well, you're definitely not I think it can become, I think there's this this feeling that life should be perfect. Like you don't I mean, you get the baby, and the baby looks perfect. You think, Well, if I don't make any mistakes, then this perfection will continue on down its path of perfection. But that's a fallacy. And so, you know, I think it would be more healthy, to consider that things are going to occur, that you are sometimes going to be great at dealing with, and sometimes you're going to be terrible at dealing with. And you might have to make adjustments on either side of the equation, like sometimes, maybe you have to adjust who you are to get through a thing. That is that is static, that you can't move, it's set in concrete. And then maybe sometimes, the thing can be changed a little bit to meet you where you exist, but that you have to always kind of on the fly, make that decision. Sometimes it's me that has to be flexible. Sometimes the situation has to be flexible. Sometimes other people in situations need to help me and sometimes I'm going to have to realize they're not going to help me. And I'm going to have to help them. And you can't fall into one of those things. Because those those pots are not the answer that it's all those things mixed together that allow you to kind of bob and weave through life like you just have to. I mean, there's so many simple ways that people say right, keep your head on a swivel, stay on a surfboard. I don't know, whatever the hell you want to say, right? You just need to be that little Hawaiian doll on on, you know, on the dashboard. Like you just yeah, the car rocks one way you rock the other way. That's just, that's it. And I don't know how you. I don't know how you teach that to people. I don't know why I have that. Yeah, there are times I think that a lot of these conversations are just me trying to figure out why there are some things I'm good at, and some things I'm bad at. And why do other people get some of those things and don't get the other ones? And can you just give them to people like like is this podcast? When it's all said and done and over? Is it just a frickin waste of time? Like, will it ever help people who heard it on day one? Or is it going to more help another person down the line? From the person who heard it? Do you really mean like are you fixing something in the moment? Or are you giving that slight turn to go back to earlier where you just kind of point people in the right in the right direction? Show them the horizon line even though they can't tell where the hell they're going yet? Give them enough trust to believe that if they move in that direction, they'll find the answer. I don't know. Like I have no idea all I know is I think talking about it makes sense.

Jon 1:34:46
It does. It does stories are powerful. There I know for a fact that there has been motivational moment LIS moments listening to and defining The content that I've gotten from the podcast Oh, that's what that is like the tendon in my right hand is hardening up. You know, the publisher who's had it for over 30 years. You okay? It you know, things like that are beyond helpful. And we like stories. We like stories, you know? They're just important guiding forces.

Scott Benner 1:35:28
Yeah. Yeah. Well, then I will just dedicate this episode, then to the person who sent the review that said, I talked too much.

Jon 1:35:36
I think you should talk more.

Scott Benner 1:35:39
You know, what I honestly ended up seeing after what I thought after I saw it was the podcast is for who it's for. There. You know what I mean? You can't make somebody like a style or not. And I certainly wouldn't change for you know what I mean, I know how many people listen to the podcast today. And if one person said, I wish you wouldn't talk as much, you know, like, alright, well, yeah, I can't change for the one person. I think I'd be alienating the others. And it's just, it's one of those things, like, in my mind, this is what a podcast is. It's people talking, if you know, and it's not just having someone on and saying, so you have a story, go ahead and tell it and then never adding context or, or breaking the flow of the conversation so that people can stop and think and absorb. And I don't know, I'm not worried about I thought it was I just thought it was funny. And then you brought something up that was just in direct, you know, direct opposition to it. And I thought, Oh, this is a funny timing. So

Jon 1:36:40
and yeah, it's just it doesn't I think, if, if I if I think about okay, thinking back on the episodes and thinking about the moderating the web, the Facebook site, and the evolution of things, you know, the constant updates, all these kinds of things. It takes like a really broad skill set. And, you know, yet, why wouldn't to me, the question is, why wouldn't you want someone who's had over 700 conversations?

Scott Benner 1:37:13
To tell you what they think about the thing you just said? Why wouldn't you? Would I, it's probably a new listener, and they'll either end up hating me or we're getting on board. I'll tell you, I got I got a review a few weeks ago, it's my favorite. Absolutely. My favorite review. Maybe ever, and you would think that my favorite ones are the ones who like I love Scott. But it's, it's not like that. It's um, I can't I wouldn't be able to find it. But it's oh, wait, maybe this is it. I have been waiting for my first full agency after starting to listen to the podcast to write this review. I love this podcast. While I sometimes disagree with Scott, and I do sometimes think he's a little overconfident. He has the the right to be oh, this is maybe it's nicer to me than I thought. Sorry, this isn't the one I was thinking about. There's one somewhere that says I hate that guy. I love that podcast. Like that's the context of it. I don't remember the actual words they use. But that one is my favorite. Because I think wow, like a person found me who I'm not their cup of tea. And yeah, they found the content so valuable. They overlooked that they don't like me to listen. And that makes me proud of the content. Yeah,

Jon 1:38:29
yeah. That's, that's one of the messages is always Yeah, it's coming through strong and especially if you want to get it it will. But I mean, I you know, like, I think you're in a tough position. I don't I would have no idea. I couldn't Bolus enough to deal with the pressure.

Scott Benner 1:38:52
We're I mean, we're up. We're done. Now, Jonathan, we're finishing up like how do you feel an hour and a half later? Do you feel nervous though?

Jon 1:38:59
I you know, the thing is, is like I have I've created a mental space to where I don't detect the anxiety. But I know physically, I'm experiencing it by looking at instruments that measure so just before we clicked record, I was at let me pull this up here. 90. Okay. And as soon as as we got into talking, and I Pre-Bolus, right. For the conversation, not for food for the conversation. I'm now cruising at 149 That's not bad. Now, it's not bad, but it's the adrenaline and the Yeah, hey, let's all that stuff just goes you know,

Scott Benner 1:39:50
I was recording with somebody a few weeks ago. I made these episodes from a pod five. Yeah, with a with a with a CD carry. Forget she's terrific. She's I've never done it before. And I joked, like halfway through the recording with her, and I said, How are you feeling? And she's because she was nervous when we started. She'd never done it before, which you would not know by listening to it. Yeah. And she said, Oh, I'm, like, surprisingly, not as nervous as I thought I said, I'm oddly calm. And I meant that, because we were going over a lot of information that we were we needed to cover, you know what I mean? Like, this wasn't just the, this wasn't just a rambling conversation with somebody. It was, I mean, it's right at the beginning the episodes that tells you like, I was compensated by, by Omnipod, to make them. And so you know, there was there were things that we, they wanted to cover that I wanted to cover, and I needed to get through them in a certain amount of time. And if there was ever going to be a moment where a person felt pressure, it would have been then. But I'll tell you an hour before we recorded, I picked up the list, I read through it very quickly, it was many pages of information. And then I put it down in front of me and I don't think I looked at it three times. And I don't have that kind of brain. I'm not lying, Jonathan, like I don't have that kind of brain. I didn't remember the things on that paper. I ended up looking at the, at the just sort of the titles of each of each kind of part on the paper. I know there's a simple word for that. But I'm, it's escaping me right now. But the header for each idea, I'd look down at it, and I'd start talking. And even I was like, why am I not nervous? I should be like, this is a thing. You know, if somebody's paying me, you know, and by the way, I want it to be good content for the people listening because I that so I don't do that very often at all, Jonathan, and I'm very, very transparent about it when I do. But. But I don't often, like get paid to make an episode like I make an episode. And I and I sell ads on it. So I'm getting paid to make the episode. But that's me. That's just I say whatever, I want this conversation with you and I, I don't I don't care where the hell this went. And you know, ads will go on it. And I have great advertisers who aren't going to who don't send me notes. Like, please don't put me on an episode where a guy tried to kill himself run into a rock wall. Like they don't say something. And they don't say, Yeah, I'm not gonna get a note later, where they're like, hello, devo, Capo pan, could you please not put us on the mushroom episodes? You know what I mean? Yeah, so everybody's really cool. And, but I felt, obviously I felt responsible. Like I said to them, I can make these for you. And not that you care. But this goes back two years, I've been telling Omnipod for two years, when five comes out. I'd like to make episodes to help people get started with it. Because I I think algorithms are going to be really important to people. Yeah, and they were lovely enough to go along with the idea. And, and so but but still, like there was a moment inside of us, like, why am I not nervous? I couldn't, I can't I still don't know. I'm like, I know, it sounds like a humblebrag John, but I really don't understand. And it bothers me to some degree, like, there's part of me that's like, why weren't you anxious? Like, while you were doing that, you I'd taken money from them, like I took the money before I recorded the thing. So like, at this point, now, if I messed it up, I gotta say, Hey, I'm sorry, Here, take this back. You know, I never felt like that. And I, I desperately want to understand that before I die. I want to know, not just that idea, but like, why are there things I'm good at and things I'm not good at? And why does that happen? You know, because they're the same muscles. There's other things I'm not good at that I appear to have the tools for? And so I don't know, anyway, it's a lot

Jon 1:43:45
of fight how you train man. And you've you've had you know, you've been presenting content in person and remotely like, how many talks have you given I just think that there's there's, there's certain muscles that are that are have been built over time. If they weren't there before. Maybe you've had it the whole time, that have been exercised to a dynamic and great extent. So it does not surprise me that you just read a header and then be like,

Scott Benner 1:44:20
I don't know, John, I don't know if we can trust you because it sounds like you had a lot of mushrooms about 20 years ago.

Jon 1:44:26
I've hung out with a lot of interesting people and I've seen just that that narrative play out.

Scott Benner 1:44:32
Yeah. Well, even even conversationally like now. Yeah, you say something? I don't know what you're going to say. And yes, and you've been a great guests like you've been very thoughtful and and well considered and your ideas are not like the poetry you speak in isn't, is an average. But I've understood everything that you've said. And then when No, no, no, it was it was lovely. And then when I I opened my mouth to respond. There's no moment where my I don't hear a voice in my head that says, Jonathan just said this, this and this. What do you think of it? It? Yeah. It just I don't know. Like why. And I know other people that if they were listening to you, and it was their job to respond afterwards, they'd say, I don't know what to say. Like, they wouldn't have a response. They wouldn't have a thought to build off of or, or anything. I just, it's an it's a neat skill. I just wish I had more context for it like you don't I mean, like, if you practice baseball every day for 20 years, you end up being good at it, you know, a little bit how you got there. I have no idea how I got there other than I used to talk myself out of things a lot when I was a kid. But I mean, so we seem like we've gotten past that. Anyway, Jonathan, I'm, that that review might be right, because this is the second episode I've recorded this week, that's gone almost two hours. So that's talking too much.

Jon 1:45:55
I think it's fun. I think it's fun. I liked it. I think it's, I like hearing what goes on on the other side of the mic, because I'm, you know, I'm aware, being an in in the academy, I see how dollars are acquired, personnel are signed on forms are signed, you know, all these moving parts to get one or two questions that are really focused, answered, and then build a 20 year career off of it, right. And here you are, like, you've got a match and a microphone, and, you know, all this, you're pulling experience, you're out working everybody, you know, you're out working everybody like this, people are probably going to be researching your podcasts and doing algorithmic searches of the content, you know, and writing about as many instances as this were was mentioned, or doing discourse analysis, and all this other kind of stuff. It's good to know that there's a human being behind the microphone and and that they're either gifted or they're just elite.

Scott Benner 1:47:13
First of all, I'll agree with you on one thing, I am outwork and other people. That is that I know, I think the conversations are important, I almost don't think it's important if everybody hears every one of them. Because if I have for this week, and you hear two of them, I still have the knowledge that came from the four when I have four more next week that I that I believe in, like just building up. I think people's I think people's experiences. Like I think the podcast is a repository for them, but I sort of am as well. And so. And while I don't remember everybody's story, word for word. I think that's where the answers come from. When I hear somebody say something, I I'm like, I don't know why I know this. But here's what I think about this. And I think it comes from talking to other people. And I will, I'll tell you, if I if I stepped back from this to give myself credit for anything. I am running a major business by myself. And that we had a moment this week. And it's just crazy. I just said we I am the pot. There's nobody except me. But But I had a moment this week, where I was. I was number 10 on Apple podcasts medicine chart, like I had gone past like Robert F. Kennedy, and people who, you know, are famous and have big platforms and have people working for them. And I thought, like, Wow, that's crazy. Like I did that, like completely by myself, the direction of the podcast, like I talked about with cutter is just, it's what I think it should be. Nobody gets into a meeting and tells me Don't say that or say this, or we need to say this more, because there's an algorithm that Google points to like, like, that's true. I've had SEO people tell me do these topics. It's what people Google. And I say, Well, I think they need to know this. And even if they don't know that they need to know it. I believe they do. So we're gonna put out an episode about this right now. It's just it's just a it's a free way to be able to, to work but again, without the without the advertisers. It doesn't exist. So I would have a real job somewhere and it wouldn't be nearly as cool as this one. I guarantee you. So anyway, Jonathan, I really appreciate you doing this. Can you hold on one second for me? Sure. Can

I? First off, of course, we have to thank John for coming on the show and telling that I mean, amazing story. We'd also like to thank on the pod makers of the Omni pod five and the Omni pod dash and remind you to go to Omni pod.com forward slash juicebox. The other sponsor of today's episode of course, is the Contour Next One blood glue ghost meter, all you have to do is go to contour next one.com forward slash juice box not just to get started, you can actually buy them online right on that site. It's super simple. Give it a look. If you're looking for community around type one diabetes, or type two diabetes, check out the Juicebox Podcast Facebook page. It's private and free. It's called Juicebox Podcast type one diabetes. Alright friends, I appreciate your time today. I hope you enjoyed the conversation with John. I know I did. Make sure you're subscribed or following in a podcast app that helps the show and it helps you get new content. And speaking of new content, I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.