#1526 Habit Lab: Breaking a Bad Habit
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Part four of the four part series with Erika Forsyth.
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Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends and welcome back to another episode of The Juicebox Podcast.
Today you're listening to the last of a four part series on goal setting and breaking bad habits while setting good ones. I'm joined today again by Erica Forsythe. You can learn more about her@ericaforsythe.com if this is your first time listening to the Juicebox Podcast and you'd like to hear more, download Apple podcasts or Spotify, really, any audio app at all, look for the Juicebox Podcast and follow or subscribe. We put out new content every day that you'll enjoy. Want to learn more about your diabetes management. Go to Juicebox podcast.com up in the menu and look for bold beginnings, the diabetes Pro Tip series and much more. This podcast is full of collections and series of information that will help you to live better with insulin. Please don't forget that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan or becoming bold with insulin. This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the Omnipod five learn more and get started today at omnipod.com/juicebox, check it out. Dexcom sponsored this episode of The Juicebox Podcast. Learn more about the Dexcom g7 at my link. Dexcom.com/juicebox, ag ones, next gen is now one of the most clinically back, greens, powders, they went above and beyond the industry standard in testing, and have made a great product even better. That's right. Today's episode is sponsored by ag one, use my link drink. Ag one.com/juicebox, to get started, and new subscribers will receive a free bottle of a G, d3, k2, an ag, one welcome kit and five of the upgraded AG, one travel packs with their first order drink. AG, one.com/juicebox Erica. In the last part of this series, we ended talking about how to build good habits. Today, we're going to start with how to break bad habits. But you thought it would be a good idea if we just did a quick review about good habit building before we got started, so jump right in.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 2:24
Yes, thank you. So again, these are, these are the four laws of behavior change from atomic habits from James Claire's book and how to build the good habit is, make it obvious, make it attractive, make it simple, convenient, easy and make it satisfying. In the previous episode, we kind of went through some more examples, so if you, if you missed that, you can go back to that. But the inverse of that, which is just as almost important, right? Because as we talk and think about wanting to start new habits, build new systems, often we do have to replace or interrupt or break that bad habit that we are conditioned. I was just actually listening to, I don't know if you've listened to Mel Robbins, and she was talking about how she is a classic procrastinator, and the first thing she does every morning is hit the snooze button. And so that which you know I'm guilty of, but I do try and use it as a Pre Bolus, but I'll like, that's the then. That's your first habit of the day. You're telling yourself that you are procrastinating, right? Again, guilty of hitting the snooze button.
Scott Benner 3:32
Are you saying for diabetes? You your alarm goes off, you Bolus a little bit, then go back to sleep and let the Bolus work? Yes. Well, you could talk yourself into saying that that's a good
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 3:41
habit. It is. It is a good well, yes, and I actually, I used to not set my alarm early enough, so then that would interrupt the flow of my family Morning. But now I try and set my alarm a little bit earlier. I hit my, you know, Pre Bolus for my coffee and my Dawn phenomenon, and then 10 more minutes, and I'm then I kind of get some, you know, time to get working, yeah,
Scott Benner 4:02
before we go on, can I ask you, do you have, is it dawn phenomenon you have, or feet on the floor? Do you get? Like,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:06
excuse me, well, I have both, and I've always like, morning has always been a battle, and it was until recently, well, I don't know, in the last 10 years, maybe that I realized I just not only needed to increase my basal rates, but just give myself three units has been the magic number for me, when you wake up, when I wake up and I don't eat anything until later in the day, like 11 or 12, but that's for my coffee and feet on
Scott Benner 4:31
the floor. Yeah, the feet on the floor been more aggressive since you've had kids, yes, yeah. And
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:36
getting older and entering into, you know, various stages
Scott Benner 4:39
of life, various stages. She's looking at me like, don't ask me which stage I'm in just but
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 4:45
you all could guess, yeah, yeah, that's, that's a whole other episode party.
Scott Benner 4:51
If you're trying to build a good habit. It's funny because when I look at make it obvious, attractive, simple, satisfying, it actually kind of goes back to me to something like for. Simple, like just talking somebody to taking a vitamin. It's a hard thing to do, because you can say, Oh, this is going to help you with that. But the satisfying part doesn't often come quickly enough for you to feel like your effort is maybe paying you back right away. And that's why it's funny. Before we started talking, I told you with Arden, I said to her, Look, there's this thing. It's, you know, that I think you should take every day. I explained to her why, trying to make it obvious. I told her what I thought could come of it, I guess, making it attractive. And then I still looked at that look on her face, and I said, I will be in charge of handing you the tablet every day to make it simple. And now we're just trying to keep those three things chugging along long enough for her to get to the satisfaction point. Yes, that is so good. But at the same time, she is a person with bad habits about taking vitamins, for example. So if I tried to just hand them to her, or put her in charge of them, or just said, like, look, just do it, because it's right, I don't think it gets done. It's interesting that your bad habits can be fighting you while you're trying to set a good habit into place. Yes. So I guess let's talk about how to break a bad habit. Okay,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 6:11
so the first one, again, these are just kind of the inverse of making the a good habit, is make it invisible, right? So, you know, if you're trying to very easy examples, not eat gluten or not eat refined sugar products or alcohol or whatever it may be, out of the house. And sometimes that might not be enough, right? So whether you're like, you put it in a different part of the nuts, not in the kitchen, but out of the house, and then you really are having to think through, Gosh, I really want this thing. I'm gonna have to do three steps to go get the thing. Yeah. So making it invisible is, is the first one making it un attractive, right? So, in the example of making it attractive, we talked about, you know, what is the space and courage? What does, how can you maybe stack the habit? So if I do something, then once I do one habit, I'm going to do the next habit right after it. So you're making that easier or more attractive for you to be conditioned to do that thing, making it unattractive. Maybe you have a punish like, I know punishment sounds as an interesting word if you do the thing consequence, yeah, maybe, yeah. I guess the consequence is the better word I was trying to find, thank you. And it doesn't have to be, you know, there's a lot of things, of, you know, taking money out of a piggy bank or putting money in every time you do something, but taking it out, right, or checking a box. There's different ways to think about it, but making it less desirable, less attractive to you, and I'm actually striking to thinking of it. And a good example, to be honest, it's a
Scott Benner 7:50
physical manifestation. It's not it's not a telling you don't tell yourself, like, Oh, I'll be better off if I take my vitamin D. You say, if I don't do it, something happens? Yeah, yeah. Interesting, yeah. I mean, yeah. So you make something kind of punitive, like, lose a penny out of a jar. You have a snack you love on Friday, you don't get five of them. You get four of them. Like, is it like, something like that, or can it be just in your head? Like, because it's funny, when you started talking about it, I thought, oh, make it unattractive. I know you said that. It's kind of the inverse. And then I looked up habit stacking, change your environment. That's that's a physical distinction, to make it attractive. And when I still, when I thought of make it unattractive, I think it's funny. I think it, it goes to how my brain works. Like I thought of, like punishing myself, almost in my head. And then I was like, Well, that can't be what she means. Because I thought, like, you know, don't eat a thing, because if you way more like that kind of and that's not a great way to like do anything. So make it unattractive. This one
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 8:46
is tough, so I guess like highlighting the benefits of avoiding your bad habits. So it is more of a mental it is this one, okay, it's more of a mental habit to focus on the unattractiveness of that particular habit you're trying to break. Yeah. Does that make sense? Kind of,
Scott Benner 9:05
yeah. Because, I mean, because make it invisible and unattractive to me could kind of go hand in hand, like the way you were talking about make it invisible. It actually made me think about, like, if there's, you know, using the idea of a snack in your house, there's a snack in your house, you know, it's not good. You throw it away, you now have to go into your car, drive somewhere, walk into a place, hold it in your hand, say to yourself, Oh, my God, I threw some of this out, and I'm picking it up again. Punitively. Pay for it like you're now. You know you're being charged again for it. Drive it home with that thought in your head, stick it in your mouth. Like to me, those two things almost went hand in hand a little Yes, yes, they do. They do. Yeah. Okay, so I get what you're saying though, like you're gonna build a narrative for yourself about why this thing that you've now made invisible would be unattractive to bring back into your life again. Yes, and even if that's just a habit like push. Pushing the snooze button, yes, yeah, yes. I push the snooze button. It makes me I get sleepier. I feel a little lazy. I set an expectation for myself that I'm not a go getter. There's a trickle down effect you walk yourself through why the thing is a bad is bad for you. Have you heard the news? AG, ones next gen is now one of the most clinically backed greens powders. They went above and beyond industry standards and testing and have made a great product even better. You know that I drink ag one every morning, but did you know it just went through a major upgrade? Ag one, next gen is here. It's the same single scoop once a day, and the next gen formula has been clinically shown to help fill common nutrient gaps, even in healthy eaters. I've been drinking ag one every morning for years, and it's sort of the sponsor of my day. So it makes sense that it's the sponsor of today's episode. Subscribe today to try the next gen of ag one. If you use my link, you'll also get a free bottle of a G, d3, k2, an ag, one welcome kit and five of the upgraded AG, one travel packs with your first order. So make sure to check out drink. AG, one.com/juicebox to get started with. AG, ones next gen, and notice the benefits for yourself that's drink. AG, one.com/juicebox my daughter is 20 years old. I can't even believe it. She was diagnosed with type one diabetes when she was two, and she put her first insulin pump on when she was four. That insulin pump was an Omnipod, and it's been an Omnipod every day since then. That's 16 straight years of wearing Omnipod. It's been a friend to us, and I believe it could be a friend to you, omnipod.com/juicebox, whether you get the Omnipod dash or the automation that's available with the Omnipod five, you are going to enjoy tubeless insulin pumping. You're going to be able to jump into a shower or a pool or a bathtub without taking off your pump. That's right, you will not have to disconnect to bathe with an Omnipod. You also won't have to disconnect to play a sport or to do anything where a regular tube pump has to come off. Arden has been wearing an Omnipod for 16 years. She knows other people that wear different pumps, and she has never once asked the question, should I be trying a different pump? Never once, omnipod.com/juicebox, get a pump that you'll be happy with forever.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 12:27
Yes, yes, and and then highlighting, okay, the benefits. So what if I, if I wake up without the snooze, I'm up before everybody else. I feel like I already very first habit of the day. I you have that sense of accomplishment instead of waking up feeling like you're behind, yeah?
Scott Benner 12:48
So you almost take that scrolling thing and use it to help yourself, like, you know the idea of, we talked about it earlier, right? Like did a social media algorithm can trick you into believing that just because you've scrolled something and tapped on things that you've accomplished something you can tell yourself that by not snoozing your alarm, I've accomplished something. Give yourself a sense of accomplishment that you can then build on and move forward. I'm assuming, make it difficult. Would be the equivalent of putting the phone across the room so you had to get up to shut it off. Yes,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 13:16
absolutely, yeah, putting putting the phone in another room, you know, having more steps, kind of it does pair with the invisible, right? Because, yeah, you have to, then if you want the snack, you have to get in the car, go to the store between you. So you're increasing the number of steps between you and the bad habit, yeah, I'm
Scott Benner 13:34
looking at this. And these four things almost all pair together into, like, make it emotionally, physically, you know, spiritually unattractive. Like the whole thing, like everything about it is unattractive. Making it visible is making it unattractive, making it unattractive, making it difficult is unattractive. And then the last part, make it unsatisfying. Again, you do something that, I mean, for me, a simple, a simple thing is, like few people have been listening. I mean, I stopped eating fried foods and oils like years ago, right? And it is unsatisfying for me, because I'll get like, I kind of get nauseous if I eat it now. And so invisible. I got rid of all the oil in the house. I kept behind a tiny little thing of canola, because there's sometimes you just need it in some recipes for people, and we make our own popcorn. So listen, I might have spent $100 figuring out which oil you can pop popcorn in and have it be flavorful. And the answer, in case you're wondering, is coconut oil. Oh, yum. That's the one. I went through all of them and you get a flavor. It was weird, saffron. This one, that one like, you know, like I went through everyone I got the coconut oil, and I was like, This is good.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 14:41
Popcorn tastes good that way. Wait, do I like an air popper? Or how do you
Scott Benner 14:45
in a pan, like a man? What are you talking about? An air pop? I take a I take an eight quart pot, I put a couple of tablespoons of coconut oil in there. It's like, goopy. You melt it down into a liquid, cover the bottom with the kernels, get it hot, put the. It on. You hear it start pop, and you little steam out fills right up. Okay.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 15:03
I was well, I was curious where you put the oil, if it was an air popper, yeah, but that's
Scott Benner 15:07
how I pop so, but again, make it invisible. All other oil in my house, vegetable oil, grape seed, safflower, anything we had in house, I threw it away. And I want to tell you I was met with the resistance. But the people in my house were like, Hey, what are you doing? And I was like, I don't think we should eat this anymore. And I had to, like, fight with them, but I had to, I took shit like I just, I generally did they. They're like, we like the popcorn better in canola. And I was like, we are not using canola anymore to pop popcorn. And they were pissed. Make it unattractive. I don't know if it ever worked for them, because they didn't have a, like, a nauseous piece to it, and they weren't paying attention to it. So any value that that my extended family got out of me getting rid of the oils. Now they don't know what happened. You know what I mean, like, and I assume they did get value, because I know I got a significant amount. I was paying really close attention to it. So the unattractive part was easy, making it difficult. I got rid of it. You know what I mean? And to me, the unsatisfying part was kind of vacillated back and forth a couple of times. And you use it and you go, Ooh, I don't, I don't feel good, you know? So it takes away any value you get from thinking the popcorn tastes better in canola oil than it does in coconut oil, which, by the way, gun to my head. It tastes a little better in the canola oil, okay, but it's good the other way and not objectionable. So, yeah, anyway, I don't know. So I broke a habit of popping my popcorn and canola oil. I'm assuming you could do it with something else in being serious, because it's not my preference flavor wise. It was not the preference of the people around me. I experienced peer pressure about it. There was a lot of different pressures. And I was like, No, I'm gonna stand firm on this. How would that spin off into a more difficult thing, quitting smoking, you know, not picking your toenails, like biting your fingernails, like stuff like that. I think you could do it. I think you could put these things into play and figure it out. Yeah, it
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 17:02
out. Yes, so, and, you know, I'm thinking about one example. I'll share this. My grandmother worked really hard this. This was she is no longer with us, but she worked really hard at quitting smoking. She had a group, you know, support group, and if she smoked one cigarette, she committed to writing a $10 check to the opposing political party of her preference. Oh, and then that was enough for her daughter to keep her motivated, because she was so passionate about her political party and knowing that that would be the painful, very painful and satisfying and attractive thing
Scott Benner 17:41
she couldn't live with it she could do. Yes. How long did she smoke for before she did this? Do you know?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 17:46
Oh, probably 60 years, yeah, but I don't know, 5050, years? Maybe?
Scott Benner 17:51
Yeah, my father, who from the stories, began smoking cigarettes when he was 12, like when I was maybe eight or nine, his employer offered him $1,000 cash to stop smoking. Now, if you can try to imagine, in 1978 we were a very blue collar family, like it was a lot of money, you know, and he did it. He did not smoke for however long, I think it was a month. And it's funny, as soon as they took the money, he got the money, and there was no new, hey, don't smoke for a month. He just started smoking again. It wasn't long enough to break, I think his physical addiction to it so and my dad had, like, a, I think I've talked about it on here before, but like, you know, like you go into a restaurant where they don't let smoke, they don't let you smoke, and inside of three minutes, he's red, sweating, like upset, frustrated, like he was really, really hooked. But, you know, it's funny enough. As he got older and he had a health issue, he stopped once. The proverbial $1,000 was there constantly, he did stop doing it. So, I mean, I guess the goal is to, like, hook this around to diabetes, is you've got to put yourself mentally in the place where you're actually gonna be if you have a problem, you gotta put yourself there before the problem exists, so that you can avoid ever having the problem. Because, I mean, the worst thing I can think of, after interviewing all these different people, is getting to the point where you're having actual physical problems that maybe are not reversible, and now you make the decision to stop you did the hard part and you did it too late. I just want you to do the hard part a little earlier. That's all if
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 19:27
that worked, which we know it often doesn't, unfortunately, right? Like that, not not fear based motivation, but like the fear and anticipation anxiety around what could happen if we don't manage our diabetes? That's really hard. Yeah, keep that front and center. So even though it's a reality, what we're hoping and what I you know, we're all working on daily, right, is to make those positive decisions of who you want to like, what is your identity? Who do you want to be? You want to live a healthy, long life. And most everyone I work with, you know that's. Your end goal. You want to you want to live a healthy, long life, so that, if that is your identity, how can you form a habit today to make that reality worth
Scott Benner 20:10
that? Yeah, hey, listen, if I would have said it to my mom, my mom would have said, if wishes were horses, beggars would ride. So I don't that's apparently a very old saying that means, yeah, sure, but that ain't gonna happen. I do think that building like one good decision at a time like you really do change over time. You just, you know, it's hard to see sometimes. Listen, I was confronted this morning with a very rude person in public, and I was so genial and cordial and worked my way right through it. And even my daughter, who's only 22 years old, when we got outside, said, Oh my God, if that would have happened, like 15 years ago? And I was like, Oh yeah, that would it would have been bad, like, I would have had a completely different response. So you can change. I, trust me, what happened to me today? Happened to me when I was 25 the person I was talking to would be crying, and instead, I just, I just smiled and waved. I just went right through it. So that's it. I'm now an adult. Yeah, you made it. Yay. 15 more years till my knee doesn't work, but I did it. We'll finish up this whole thing with like, a nice, big conversation about what gets in the way of habit setting. You can manage diabetes confidently with the powerfully simple Dexcom g7 dexcom.com/juicebox the Dexcom g7 is the CGM that my daughter is wearing. The g7 is a simple CGM system that delivers real time glucose numbers to your smartphone or smart watch. The g7 is made for all types of diabetes, type one and type two, but also people experiencing gestational diabetes. The Dexcom g7 can help you spend more time in range, which is proven to lower a 1c The more time you spend in range, the better and healthier you feel. And with the Dexcom clarity app, you can track your glucose trends. And the app will also provide you with a projected a 1c in as little as two weeks. If you're looking for clarity around your diabetes, you're looking for Dexcom, dexcom.com/juicebox when you use my link, you're supporting the podcast, dexcom.com/juicebox
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 22:18
head over there. Now, yes, you know, if it were just as easy as you know from Skinner, right? Who did all this, you know, research that we can shape behavior with cue, craving, response, reward, right? If you precede behavior with the reliable cue and end it with the reliable reward, you can shape that middle behavior, which is some of what we've been talking about with how to create that good habits, and, you know, conversely, how to break the bad habits. But as James talks about, and I think it's really important for us to know like, we are emotional beings, right? So it isn't always as simple, even as you know you made that joke. Like, it isn't as simple as like, well, I want to be a healthy person. So today I'm going to do this, this and this. So what gets in the way? So there are different themes I think we could talk about. Is it, is it the theme, you know? Is it? Are you fearful? Is fear intervening or interrupting or preventing you from making that first change because of a you don't know how, you don't know what it looks like, you don't have the support. And this, it's beyond just like willpower, right? It's, it's
Scott Benner 23:24
almost not classic fear. It's more like uncertainty, like underlying uncertainty. Yeah,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 23:29
yes. Are you stuck, maybe in your systems right now, or habits because you feel like you need to understand or perfect the process, right? Like we talked a little bit about that, like, are you gathering all of this information and doing all the research? Because you want to know exactly how to use the pump before you start using the pump? Or, I don't know, trying to think of a diabetes example, because you feel like you don't want to start until you know it all. But as we know, it takes a lot of time. Is it perfection that's keeping you stuck?
Scott Benner 24:02
Right? I know you got one more leg to this, but I have to say, like, you know, sometimes little sayings really help me. Fear is a liar. Has been a big help to me throughout my life, right? You know, fear is just anxiety making up stories about what might happen perfection. You know, I think there's a ton of honest truth about the fact that successful people often fail over and over again, which, to me, indicates they did not have a perfect system set up when they started. I don't think there's anything wrong with trying something and not going well, stepping back, seeing where it went wrong, and just jumping right back in and trying it again. Like, what else are you doing? You know what I mean? Just absolutely
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 24:39
yes, but there's Yeah, but it's can feel really scary to take that first step when you feel like you have to know it all before doing it. And so just acknowledging that, like I'm feeling like I need to know it all, like, just the power of naming that moment is is really significant. Well,
Scott Benner 24:56
if we could help people, maybe with a personal you. Anecdote, and I'll see how much you're willing to share here. But, I mean, I know there are people who listen to this podcast like that guy doesn't know what he's talking about, but I am figuring it out as we're talking, and if I didn't talk, we wouldn't figure anything out. So you start and go. And Erica shared with me earlier. I think this is okay, so I can say this, but we were talking about the value of working together and and, you know, you told people, well, tell me what, tell them what you told me about,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 25:24
yeah. But actually, when we, when I prepare for our, you know, recordings, it's beneficial for me, personally, professionally, and I enjoy the process, right, as well as the actual recording and conversation, yeah, but when we
Scott Benner 25:41
started, and the reason I appreciate you sharing that, I appreciate you allowing me to strong arm you into sharing that, the reason I bring it up is because when you and I started doing this together, you were not nearly as comfortable as you are now. You were good, but you're you're more comfortable now. And and on top of that, like, being able to say like, this is a great time for me to like, you know, add to what I understand. You were a person who understood a lot when we started. If I go back to when you and I meet and I say, oh, Eric, you know what one of the great values of this is going to be, you would have been like, buddy, I already know what I'm doing. I don't, you know. Like, then you end up learning so, I mean, I get it. If you're an anxious person, or you're you're super type A and you can't move without knowing where every step is. It's got to be difficult. But if you want to take it from a person like me, who you know, I know I don't have a ton of anxiety, and I'm not afraid to fail or have people point at me and say he doesn't know what he's doing, I've had nothing but benefits from acting that way. You know what I mean. So anyway, what's the third leg of this fear, fear perfection, and
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 26:41
so, you know, shame is obviously a biggie. We can get so stuck in, you know where you're at, and then you, you know the goal that you have. And I love this example. I think, I think this is from also James clear. He talks about an acorn, and when we see an acorn on the ground, we never look at it and say, Oh, that tiny acorn, and shame it and say, You're such a little thing, you haven't amounted to anything. The Acorn is still growing, and it's going to do and grow and become a beautiful oak, right someday. And similarly, if we can apply that, when you were looking at yourself today, as I would talk to myself and say, gosh, you know, you never did this yet, or you haven't achieved that yet. Say, gosh, you know, we're still, I'm still growing. We are still just like, you know, you shared too, like we are all learning and growing, and when we tell ourselves Shame on you, you haven't figured it out yet. Why haven't you done that yet? You're still a tiny acorn. We keep ourselves stuck there. Yeah,
Scott Benner 27:53
absolutely. You're just a pair of little nuts. Yeah, you couldn't wait to say that. Yeah, I was so excited. One day, one day it'll, you know, one day you'll be what you're mean to be like, not if you don't do it. Like, that's the truth. Like, it sounds like, you know, it sounds like, bro science, but like, You got to get out there and go do the thing. When people say things like, you know, the only things I can't do are things that I haven't tried. I sort of believe that, you know what I mean. Like, I don't think I'm gonna be able to dunk a basket. To dunk a basketball, but I could put a ton of effort into shooting a ball better and be better at it. Like I don't. It's not a thing I'm excited to do, so I don't put my time into it. But if you're sitting around right now saying I want to Pre Bolus for my meals, but I can't seem to get it done, you know, there's a way to set up good habits, get rid of your bad habits, and go from an acorn to an oak. About pre bolusing, or about, I don't know, putting an extra five seconds of effort in at a restaurant, I watched Arden do it last night. We went out to dinner and she bolused. And I was like, that is not enough insulin. Like, I could see it from across the table. I was like, that's not gonna be right. And like, if she would have really looked at it, she could have seen like, oh, you know what I do, think this is more like 45 but she picked a nice, safe number and went with it. And an hour later, as her blood sugar started to go up, I said, Arden, Hey, I didn't want to get involved earlier, but, you know, I don't think you bowl a snuff for dinner. And she's like, Oh, you don't think so. And I was like, no. And she went and looked, and she put more in and she's good after that, did she say to herself, I have to break bad habits and figure this out and set good she didn't like but you're listening to this. You're thinking about like, I have these shortcomings. I'd like to put better, you know, processes in place to give myself more of a chance. You could easily be that person. Listen, if I'm good at diabetes, anybody can be good at it. I think that's just true. You know what I mean. And if, if so many people like go look at the reviews, except for the few people who don't like me, go look at the reviews and say to yourself, at some point, this person leaving this review, that's like, My God, my a, 1c, is five, three, or it's six, two, or my variability is better. At some point they were an acorn, and now they're not. Yeah, you know.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 30:01
And I love what, what you were getting into is the significance of the mindset, like you said, you know, maybe you can't like the basketball like you haven't tried it yet. And one thing that a lot of elementary schools teach is called, it's Mind Yeti curriculum. It's about the importance of yet, the word yet, and so having a growth mindset means I haven't learned how to Pre Bolus yet, or I haven't learned how to dribble the basketball yet, but I'm going to go learn how and practice versus the fixed mindset is I'm never going to get it. You know, we even have the phrase you can't teach an old dog new tricks. Like we have that anchored in our culture and our mindset, that like we're stuck in our ways, you aren't going to change me, and I'm never going to be able to get that. So if you hear yourself having that, what's called a fixed mindset, it is feels like impossible to change, but adding that yet at the end of a sentence is so powerful, and so that's just something I was thinking about. Wanting to throw in here is whatever it is you're feeling stuck on, like I haven't done the thing, and then an hour I'm never gonna do it, or I don't know how, but just add in yet, right? It's adding hope, save,
Scott Benner 31:18
like, physical or financial restrictions, I can't think of anything I don't think I could accomplish if I put my effort into it. And making this podcast taught me that it really did. Also I get, maybe that I have that like my mind works in that direction anyway, because I think back to when, yeah, I think back to when I got the offer to write my book, and I took it, and I called my wife on the phone, and I said, Hey, I'm going to write a book. Like a publisher is going to pay me. I'm going to write a book. And she my wife's first question, she didn't say, congratulations. We knew each other for a while. By then she goes, Can you write a book? And I paused, and I thought, I guess I'm not sure, like, if I can write a book or not, but I said I don't know. We'll find out. And if I can't, I'll just give them back the money. It's exactly what I told her. They're going to write me a check to write the book, write me another check when I'm done writing the book, I said they'll write me the first check. I'll put it in the account. We'll sit on it, and if I can't deliver the manuscript, give them the money back. Who cares? I think I can. And let's find out. And Neil, I guess you, depending on how you feel about the book, you'll decide whether or not I could or not. But like, I did it, like, you know what I mean? Like, I put words together, put them in chapters, et cetera. They make sense. It's interesting, though. Like, when you look at different people's mindsets, like, it never occurred to me that I had never done that before, and when she heard that, it's all she thought of. You've never done that before. You've never done anything that would even indicate you could do this. You were a bad student. Can you even do this? And I was like, I don't know. Let's find out. You know? So anyway, I'm
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 32:51
remembering our all of our conversations around resilience, right? And how, how do you become a resilient individual? And is it, you know, genetic, environmental, all those things, sure, and so part of it probably might be that, but also, you can shape your mindset.
Scott Benner 33:08
I also have zero fear about anything, so to my own detriment sometimes, but I'm just like, you know, I mean, if you're not pointing a gun at me, I'm like, we could probably work this out, you know, like, I really don't have a ton of fear about things. Also, you only have to fail a certain amount of times in life and not die before you just go, oh, failing is not the worst thing that could happen. God, I'm gonna sound like a like a T shirt, but not trying is the worst thing that could happen. Like you don't even like trying and failing just puts you back where you started and you got a story, maybe, if you're lucky, you know, yes. So, yes. What is this about your thoughts?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 33:41
Okay, so with that again, it's about the internal like, Are you keeping your thoughts your goals, whether it's your negative self talk, the shame or even the goals? Are you keeping it internal? Are you keeping it in your mind and your thoughts that also will get in the way of habit forming, you know, goal setting, instead of getting it out, like getting the systems out, that's a lot of the things that we've been talking about. Making good habits is about the physical cues, the physical symptoms, your environment is really, really significant. So if you find that you're continuing to say to yourself, I just I got to do this. I got to achieve this goal. But you've changed nothing externally, whether it's the sticky note on the coffee pot or changing your room around, or putting the yoga mat out, or the exercise outfit out, the sticky note of a positive mantra on the mirror, whatever it is, I think it's Yeah, that could keep you kind of stuck right, if you're just thinking about it and not doing and not getting it out. And by
Scott Benner 34:44
the way, with in today's society, everything's so digitally based to begin with. Like, yeah, there's a ton of people who, like, you'll see everywhere they're like, I'm doing this, I'm starting that. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. And they never do it. But like, some people do, some people say, I'm going to make a podcast about diabetes and. 11 years later, they're still doing it, you know. Maybe you won't be that person. But again, I think your point again is, if you hold it inside, go, You know what I'm gonna do one day, one day I'm gonna get all my ducks in a row, and then when those ducks are lined up, you're never gonna do it like that, you know? And there is something to be said for saying it out loud makes you a little I don't know more accountable? Yeah, I guess accountability is the right word, right like, you know, and again, you have to be not afraid to fail, but making yourself accountable, you'll find out if you're going to do it or not. Like, that's, that's for sure. I've listened. There are a lot of things that you guys have listened to on this podcast, enjoyed or it's helped you. That just started with me going, I wonder what would happen if we did this. You know what? I mean? I'm going to reach out to people and ask a question. You know, I opened up a circle community that I think has like 1000 people in it right now, and it's going to take me years to build it up, right? But it gets me out of, like, I don't want to leave Facebook, but it relieves some of the problems that a Facebook ecosystem has. And I think it's going to be a valuable thing. I don't think it's ever going to be as big as the Facebook group. Facebook group, but I think it'll be really valuable for the people who find their way to it. I don't want to charge anybody for it, and it's expensive to run. So the first thing I did was I started a trial, and I said, are people interested in this? And they were. I was like, Okay. And then I got myself to the point where I could pay for the lowest tier of it myself. So I'm going to pay the I'll pay the amount. And then there's some functionality that came out. I was like, wow, we really need to move up a tier if this is going to be really valuable for people. And I cold called some of my advertisers, and I was like, Listen, I need an amount of money every year to run this thing. It is not going to pay you back in any way at all. And one guy said, I'll talk to you about it. I have a phone call with him next month. So you guys might get a benefit, because I was willing to call someone up and say, Hey, here's a shot in the dark. But can I ask you a question? And, you know, ask for people that question. And one of them was like, man, sure, I see you out there helping people. Like, I'll help you. Okay, so go for it, you know,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 37:00
yeah, you got, yeah, getting that out instead of just thinking about it, keep
Scott Benner 37:04
talking to myself about it. It ain't gonna go anywhere. It just, it, just, it's never gonna work out. And maybe this won't work, but we're a lot closer to it working now than we would be if I just kept telling myself like, you know, it would be a great idea. You know, be a great idea. Big deal. No one knows, but you Okay.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 37:24
So what else gets in the way of habit setting the the arrival fallacy, which is the belief that achieving a goal will lead to lasting happiness, right? So most common example, it's kind of an if, when or when I lose the weight, or when I weigh this amount, or when I get this a, 1c, then I will be truly happy. Nirvana comes then, yeah, yes. Obviously, there are a lot of external and internal benefits from achieving some of those examples, right? But it can be a trap for us, when a we arrive to that goal and you still don't feel great about yourself, maybe mentally or emotionally, and then you realize, oh, that's really dissatisfying. But also the shame that you're not there yet. It goes back to the shame that keeping you stuck in where you are right like so I'm I look this way, or my can't get my a 1c down, but I know when I get to that place, then I'll feel good. But gosh, I'm not there yet, and I just feel terrible about myself. The Arrival fallacy is a pretty significant issue concern that prevents us from moving forward.
Scott Benner 38:36
Yeah, just the idea that, like, once I do this, then it'll be perfect. Yes, yeah, once I get to this thing, then I'll be happy. Oh, if I make this much money, that'll be okay. Listen, I have to tell you, I think the opposite about it. I think humans are wired like ants. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think we are supposed to be picking up a pebble, walk into a spot, putting it down, making a hill, going find another pebble, doing it again and again. Like, I think people are happier with the task and, like, what better task than making yourself a better version of you than you are today? Like, and, you know, set it a goal, get it done, instead of wanting that. That like, you know, oh, I I'm finally accounting for fat in my food when I'm bolusing, right? How come I'm not a foot taller, my skin's not shiny, and I don't have a million dollars, right? And men and women aren't chasing me around all over, like, how come I didn't turn into, like, you know, a Nirvana situation. I just look at it as, like, just one more little like thing. We shined up, you know what I mean? And, yeah, you die at the end, and you're probably never gonna get the perfection. But I think you feed that natural human instinct to move forward to better yourself, I think you have to stop believing that it's a certain thing that'll make you happy, and start believing that the pursuit of anything is kind of what makes you happy. You know what I mean? Like, like fulfilling your wiring, which is like trying, I don't know that's. How I find it to be, at least, I I've had incredibly loser days, you know, where everything I've tried to do is just falling on its face, but like, I don't feel like, oh, I failed. I feel like, All right, we'll try something different tomorrow, you know? And just, I don't know, I love that. I love using my own innate drive to make myself happy, if that makes sense, yes,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 40:20
because, well, because in that, it's about, you know, it's about the journey, not the destination, kind of, yeah, irony or not irony. But I know we hear that a lot, but it actually really is true. Because if you anchor so much on the destination, then you could be miserable, you could never start. You know, all the things that we've already mentioned and I love kind of you've set set me up to use this quote from Carl Young, who is a Swiss psychologist, psychiatrist. He created the theory of analytic psychology, and he said, You must love the thing you want to change, essentially meaning that in order to truly change something within yourself or others, you need to accept and fully understand it, fully, even if it's initially like the thing inside you you don't like it's undesirable, instead of condemning it, shaming it. This acceptance is akin to a form of love. So accepting that thing that is just Gosh, I really want to change, and loving that part of you enables you to step forward, because you're not trapped in that fear and shame,
Scott Benner 41:32
right? Well, I'm going to share something with you guys. So the bones of this conversation, over these number of episodes, Erica laid them out for me, right? And the way we I want to be really transparent, like, I come with the idea I say the thing I said at the beginning, Erica lays out the bones of the conversation. She explains to me the reality of things. I reply with how I feel, like, if you're not listening and understanding that already, like, that's how it happens, right? So we're at the end of this now, and I just said something that I did not plan on saying. It led Erica to her last thought, but while she was having that thought and sharing it with you, I went to our little friend on the internet. Okay, I want to be clear now I'm using chat, GPT 03, Mini and all I said was, what is the human drive to work and move forward? That's all I said. Okay, it says our survival instincts are hardwired into our brains. Early humans had to work, hunt, gather, build to survive. This has evolved into neural reward systems like dopamine releases that reinforce behaviors essential for survival and progress. Essentially, the need to secure food, shelter, safety has set a foundation of work ethic and drive under physical motivations. It says intrinsic motivation, this is the internal desire to achieve personal goals, learn new skills and fulfill one's potential. Concepts like self actualization, as described in Maslow's hierarchy of needs, illustrates how once our basic needs are met, we naturally seek to achieve higher levels of personal growth and fulfillment self determination theory, the theory emphasizes the importance of autonomy, competence and relatedness. When people feel they have control over their work and they are good at what they do and feel connected to others, they are more motivated to push forward. And then here's the last bit of it, goal setting and achievement setting, clear goals, whether personal or professional, creates a sense of purpose. The pursuit of these goals activities activates a reward cycle of achievement that fuels further motivation. This is not a thing I understood completely when I started. I started with I can't believe I'm seeing people online make videos that are taking advantage of people's desire to do better for themselves, and trapping them in that loop instead of helping them fulfill themselves. And we had this conversation, I asked myself a question that I did not know I was going to ask myself, and it turns out, I think I'm right. So like and I'm a little surprised. I just wanna be honest with everybody, I'm a little surprised by that, okay, like all I did was see a thing. And so I'm sharing this not to pat myself on the back, but to make the point about trying. I saw a thing. I thought it was doing something bad. I have at my disposal the ability to talk to Erica, but I don't have the full thoughts to move that whole thing forward, so I lean on her. Take her expertise. She pulls her expertise together, leans it back on me. I lend my cockeyed thoughts back to her, which gets her thinking about it, and we end up with the answer, which is, this is absolutely possible for you, like, take this thing that's being done to you by your algorithm, by your Instagram, by somebody on YouTube, and instead of allowing them to trick you into believing that you're moving forward, actually take something in your life and move forward incrementally, and maybe at the end you'll be like, Wow, look at me. Look how far I came. I have that feeling right now. Having created this series with you, and I think people could, like, take that, like, I know it's not a podcast your life's not a podcast, but take it into your life and pick some boring part of yourself that could use a shine up and, like, put that towards it. I'm really happy with it. How this went. How about you? That's
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 45:18
Yes, I am too. And I think that the starting the small, having the belief that you can change something, is so important, right? Like that. You were just kind of summarizing, reflecting. It does start with that, yeah, having the belief you can and then implementing some of these steps, starting as small as you can, and accepting where you are each day, not letting the fear or the need to be perfect or the shame interfere with that journey, but having the belief that you can and starting as small as you as you need to, I would say, are really important.
Scott Benner 45:56
Yeah. I mean, listen, if you can take this series as an example, and listened to Erica laughing 30 seconds ago. She's laughing because I'm like, Oh, I can't believe this worked. And that happens a lot with you and I, but at the same time, like to leave it with the podcast as an example, but stretch it out a little bit. I spoke to somebody the other day who told me that their daughter and they are healthier now because I shared my weight loss diary. But if you go back to the beginning of when I started sharing my weight loss diary, I got yelled at a lot by people for sharing my weight loss diary. I ignored them. Kept doing it, and two years later, met a lady who said, I'm much healthier because of you. If I would have listened to the first voice that came at me, I would not have done that. This podcast as a whole. In the first month that I started it, I was approached by a person in the diabetes community who told me that I was doing the wrong thing by sharing how I manage my daughter's diabetes with people. She told me it was dangerous and I was going to hurt somebody. And 11 years later, there are 1000s of reviews, and 10s of 1000s of people have listened whose a one sees are better and they're happier and healthier. Why? Because I ignored the first voice that said to me, that's not how we do things here. Like, so you've got that voice in your head, that's not how we do things here. You tell that voice what I told that lady, go yourself, and then, like, you know, 11 years later, here we are now, if it all would have fallen apart and not worked, where would the harm have been? Do you mean, like, I share my weight loss journey, and no one ever says to me, Hey, I'm doing better now because of you. No, like, nothing lost, nothing, you know, there's not what it was. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Is that the thing? Yeah, yes. Just live your life by T shirt slogans. It'll probably go fine.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 47:46
Oh my gosh, yeah. And coffee mugs, yeah, go
Scott Benner 47:48
buy that. Listen, I gotta here's the real secret. Go buy that little book that, uh, Ben Franklin wrote, Poor Richard's Almanac of common sense, or whatever the hell it's called. Just read that. It's all right. There. There were like five people in the world. He figured out every reasonable thing, and he wrote it down. You know what I mean, Early to bed, early to rise, make a fire company, etc, and so on. Like, it's not hard to dream up the world when there's no world. It's all incredibly doable. It just really I'm not a special person. Like, I'm just not, do you know what I mean? And you don't need to be. I just bought a microphone, and I was like, I know a thing. I'll say it into here, and I'll see what happens. What happens. It doesn't work out. It doesn't work out, and it worked out. Maybe something in your life will work out. It's all I'm trying to say. And to back to my anger from the beginning of this. Stop letting can shiny people on YouTube tell you you're gonna be rich if you just listen to them, or you're gonna be this if you just do that, or just do that. Don't listen to them. Don't listen to me. Listen to yourself. Just put your motion and get it done. I can't be in charge. Everybody. Erica makes me upset. We believe in you. No, stop it. That was ridiculous, although I would like to start a cult when
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 48:56
this is all over and we and you and I believe, and yes, believing in all the people listening as well. Yeah, yeah,
Scott Benner 49:02
you can do it. All I get when I think back over this conversation is that you've got some bad habits. You've got some good habits. You have some pre wired things that are either helping you or getting in your way. Be aware of what they are. Pick something small, fix it, get a little momentum, throw it on something a little bigger. You wake up, 11 years later, you have the biggest diabetes podcast in the world. Maybe like, right? But again, you don't try it. You won't know. So also, please, nobody start a diabetes podcast. Put your efforts into something else. I'm already here. I enjoy you know, my space. I don't need you all. Like, competing with me. I'm done. You know what I mean, Jesus, like, find your own thing. I've just started podcast. If you want to, what do I care? Just do the thing that's in your head. Like, whether it's not buying Doritos or trying a thing or a new job or learning it's. Feel like, Guys, I wish you could be here. I wish you could have been here a year and a half ago, when my son said, only a year removed from college, I didn't learn enough at college, and I have a job, and it's a good job, and I'm comfortable, but I need to understand more, like I'm going to come home and I'm going to teach myself that thing, and he picked this incredibly difficult thing to teach himself, and seven months later, was gainfully employed with that knowledge, like as he was doing it, if I would have had any amount of my parents in me, I would have been like, No way, buddy, like you, keep working at that job. That's a good job. You got a degree. It works for this. The kid pivoted on a just on a dime. He was like, nope, boom, fixed and didn't like, lay around lazy and like, be like, Oh, get to it. Got up every day. Made putting that new information in his head his job. I watched him do it every day for months and months and months. And then when he started applying for jobs Erica. He must have gotten turned down for 400 jobs, because the way you apply online nowadays, it's just you pump your resume out to everything. He had times where he, I hope he doesn't mind me saying this, he'd send a resume out, and before you could, like, straighten up in his chair, he was rejected. Like a bounce back email came back then was like, no, just kept going, you know, so anyway, is there anything?
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 51:26
It's belief, no, I love it, the belief that he, he will get there. That's because
Scott Benner 51:33
I said it earlier. But like, what's the alternative? You're alive anyway, you're getting up every day, you're washing your ass and brushing your teeth, you might as well, like, put all that effort into something that might move you forward, versus something that's definitely just holding you where you are and making you sad. I know it's not that easy, Eric, I'm not stupid. I understand. It's like, I've been doing this with you long enough. Okay.
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 51:56
Yeah, you knew. You knew I was gonna say, I know what you're gonna tell me.
Scott Benner 51:59
I almost don't need you anymore. I know what you're gonna know what you're gonna tell me, and I know it's and you shouldn't beat yourself up if it doesn't feel that way, and etc and so on. But like, you shouldn't ignore the fact that there's a possibility somewhere that you could achieve that thing. I think you just bite sized chunks are just such an important part of this, right? Like, just don't shoot the moon right away. Just first step. You know, go slow. That's all I got. I burned myself out Erica. What do
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 52:28
you got? No, I think that's good, yeah. If anything from all of from all of these episodes, if you're feeling either motivated or not finding that one small thing, the two minute rule, or, even smaller, whatever it is, and kind of working, working the steps, so to speak, but is really, really crucial.
Scott Benner 52:49
Yeah, yeah. I mean, one step at a time, right? That's all you can do. All right? Again, I can't. Thank you enough. I'm excited to see what we're going to do next together, but for now, I think this, this puts a nice cap on goal setting and habit building and habit breaking. So I appreciate it very much. Yes,
Erika Forsyth, MFT, LMFT 53:04
you're welcome. Thank you,
Scott Benner 53:11
both Erica and I hope that you enjoyed the series on goal setting. We wish you a ton of success Breaking Bad habits and setting new healthy habits for yourself. Please check out Eric at Erica forsythe.com Eric has been on a ton of other episodes. You can find a full list at Juicebox podcast.com up in the menu under mental wellness, and that same list exists in the private Facebook group under the feature tab. Today's episode of The Juicebox Podcast is sponsored by the Dexcom g7 and the Dexcom g7 warms up in just 30 minutes. Check it out now at dexcom.com/juicebox I start every day with a delicious drink of ag one, and I'm ending today's episode by reminding you to go to drink ag one.com/juicebox. Subscribe today to try the next gen of ag one, if you use my link, you'll also get a free bottle of Ag, d3, k2, an ag one welcome kit and five of the upgraded ag one travel packs with your first order. So make sure to check it out with my link. Drink. AG, one.com/juicebox, links in the show notes. Links at Juicebox podcast.com. The conversation you just enjoyed was sponsored by Omnipod five. You want to get an Omnipod five? You can? You want to make me happy? Do it with my link. Omnipod.com/juicebox thank you so much for listening. I'll be back very soon with another episode of The Juicebox Podcast. If you're not already subscribed or following the podcast in your favorite audio app, like Spotify or Apple podcasts, please do that now. Seriously, just to hit follow or subscribe will really help the show. If you go a little further in Apple podcasts and set it up so that it downloads all new episodes, I'll be your best friend, and if you leave a five star review. Oh, I'll probably send you a Christmas card. Would you like a Christmas card? My diabetes Pro Tip series is about cutting through the clutter of diabetes management to give you the straightforward, practical insights that truly make a difference. This series is all about mastering the fundamentals, whether it's the basics of insulin dosing adjustments or everyday management strategies that will empower you to take control. I'm joined by Jenny Smith, who is a diabetes educator with over 35 years of personal experience, and we break down complex concepts into simple, actionable tips. The Diabetes Pro Tip series runs between Episode 1001 1025 in your podcast player, or you can listen to it at Juicebox podcast.com by going up into the menu, the episode you just heard was professionally edited by wrong way recording, wrong way recording.com you.
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