#519 Sunk Cost Fallacy with David Copeland, Ph.D.

David Copeland, Ph.D. is the father of a child with type 1 diabetes and a professor of Psychology.

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends and welcome to Episode 519 of the Juicebox Podcast.

On today's episode, I'll be speaking with David Copeland David is the father of a child with Type One Diabetes. But that is not nearly why he's on the show today. David is also an associate professor of psychology at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. And he's kind enough to be on the show today to answer a few of my questions. Not the least of which is what is sunk cost fallacy. Now, don't stop your player. Don't go oh sunk cost fallacy with Scott What? Just stick with me on this one. Okay. It's an interesting look into how our minds work, and how maybe they impact us when we make decisions about things like I don't know, life stuff, or maybe even diabetes. While you're listening, please remember that nothing you hear on the Juicebox Podcast should be considered advice, medical or otherwise, please always consult a physician before making any changes to your health care plan. We're becoming bold with insulin. I promise you this will be interesting. I promise sunk cost fallacy and other things.

This episode of The Juicebox Podcast is brought to you by touched by type one, a wonderful organization helping people with type one diabetes, learn more about them at touched by type one.org. Or you can find them on Facebook, and Instagram. Before we start, I want to remind you that if you're a US resident living with Type One Diabetes, or a US resident who is the caregiver of someone with type one, I would love it, if you'd go to the T one D exchange and fill out their survey. It's at T one d exchange.org. forward slash juicebox. Others who have done this already have contributed to their registry. And because they share their experiences over the past two years that he won the exchange has gathered the stories of nearly 15,000 people to better understand how the community is doing overall. And in the future. They'll identify trends and improve T one D care with the answers to the survey that you can give. You can give those answers at T one d exchange.org. forward slash juicebox. When you do that, you're going to be helping research for type one diabetes. And you'll be helping me a little bit because I'm going to get a little bit of money every time one of you signs up. T one d exchange.org. forward slash juicebox. I've done it It took me about seven minutes. And it really was super easy, completely HIPAA compliant. totally anonymous. The questions were not difficult. I did it on my phone. You could also do it on your computer. It's not a big deal won't take long at all. Alright, let's get to David, and talk about how your brain works. And how it sometimes it tries to fool you.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 3:11
My name is David Copeland. I'm a professor at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, otherwise, typically known as you nlv. I've been a professor there for about 15 years now and I originally got my degree from the University of Notre Dame.

Scott Benner 3:25
You know, I said to my wife that you went to you and Lv and she looked right through me. And I thought for a minute thought and I was like, she doesn't watch college basketball. no memory of the right and rebel. Because if she would have grown up when I grew up, and I said you lie to her, she would have been like, yes, also, I believe Randall Cunningham son is a quarterback there, right?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 3:46
I not aware about the son, but I know Randall was Randall

Scott Benner 3:51
tech. Yeah. And I'm from Philly. So Randall Cunningham was the first like, real athletic quarterback in the league. In my opinion. Some may argue Warren moon, but you'd be wrong. Sun Moon was more of a thrower. So yeah, I know. I'm just telling you, Randall Cunningham. I saw Randall Cunningham do things that would just like fry your mind like leap over men who were standing up or get knocked down to basically do a push up to keep themselves off the ground, pop back up and throw the ball 90 yards and

David Copeland, Ph.D. 4:22
one new i think i think i remember some of those. I'm visualizing right now.

Scott Benner 4:27
absolutely insane. One time it was third down and we were trapped in our own end zone. And they had him punt. So who even know you can do that you can apparently punt whenever you want to. And it's third down he punts from our end zone. I believe it's the longest punt in NFL history. Get like rolled out at the wall. Yeah, cuz no one is back there probably kept rolling. No one was thinking he was gonna pump but he like really struck the ball. Well is my point. The man was an athlete, as I'm saying. And you went over and that's why my wife didn't understand what I was saying. So anyway, I really appreciate you doing this. I am going to tell you for a moment that your response made me feel like warm about the podcast. Because I had this feeling like I was like, I wonder what I couldn't wish for that might not happen. Like because yours is a real? Like I said online like it, can anyone come on and talk about sunk cost fallacy and I was like, no one's gonna respond. And then there you are. On a nerd like me. Excellent happens to know that, to be honest, you saw it, where you're like, finally, I'm being called on.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 5:39
Well, at first I thought, you know, I was in a different, you know, Facebook group or something like that, you know, for, you know, teaching related issues or something like that. And so then I was like, Oh, wait, no, this is juice.

Scott Benner 5:51
So when you? You know what I'm asking this question later. First, tell me what your connection to type one is.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 5:57
My daughter who is currently three years old, it was diagnosed as a type one diabetic at age of 14 months. So So we've been dealing with this for about two years now.

Scott Benner 6:08
Wow. That's pretty damn young.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 6:12
Yeah, so are and when we first met with them, he said, I've seen younger, but not very often.

Scott Benner 6:18
I mean, I don't know that you're trying to win that race. But you're pretty close. That's although i think i think there's a woman who gave birth to a baby that had type one. I can't I can't get that story straight or fine. seem to find her. But I've heard some crazier stories. But I mean, Arden was, you know, just turned two. And I remember feeling like she was, you know, a fetus though. Like she was so little.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 6:44
Oh, yeah. She's, I mean, it was tough at first, you know, seeing her in the hospital with, especially all the tubes and wires, you know, attached and everything when they first admitted her. But she has been a champ throughout this whole process. And you know, she'll have a little bit of resistance here and there. But she's, she's really good in terms of, you know, she knows it's time for your shot, for example, and she'll point to where she wants it. And, Wow, she's ready to go. No,

Scott Benner 7:10
not there. Over here, buddy. Right here. Arden does the same thing. I'm like, hey, it's time for a pump. And you can see her looking around herself. I don't know if anybody makes like, if that makes sense that actually what am I saying? everyone listening knows it makes sense to them. But I can see Arden kind of visualizing her body and she then she kind of chooses a place. So only child, your 17th kid like where does she fall in the family.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 7:33
She's our first child. And we read this past year, we have a son. He's now about nine months old. And so far, he's showing those signs. But as he's only nine months old, so we're keeping our fingers crossed and hoping for the best with

Scott Benner 7:47
David, obviously, the magic number is 14. So you can't you oddly feel that way. Like you have to get past 14 months.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 7:55
Oh, I know that it can happen in pretty much any time. And so so it's one of those things that we just you're just gonna progress through life. And it might happen and it might not.

Scott Benner 8:06
So it's just one of those things you have to accept. You don't have that kind of unrealistic idea. Like my dad had a heart attack when he was 46. And I'm gonna have like, you don't feel like that?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 8:15
I don't think we think of it as inevitable I think you can think of is in terms of probabilities. And that Yeah, because you know, sibling has it has diabetes, that there's a maybe increased probability of the second child having it as well. But I don't see it as inevitable or once we get past the marker, we're fine. You know, right. It's just always one of those things where Yeah, it's there's a chance.

Scott Benner 8:41
No, I I think that's a I think that's the right way to think about it. I just think that people's minds sometimes jump to you know, they started seeing connections that don't exist, and then they start believing in them. But

David Copeland, Ph.D. 8:52
oh, yeah, our minds, our minds like to put things together. That's why that's why there's conspiracy theories.

Scott Benner 8:58
Yeah, no, you don't. You don't think all that stuff didn't really happen to you? I like I like hearing about the, the UFOs. And I don't I can tell you that for certain. I don't know, if they're, you know, flying saucers and people from other planets and stuff like that. I have no idea that really very well could be in there very well might not be. But I know when people talk about it. It's fascinating to listen to them speak about it, because they have they have built in all of these like, well, you know how you can really tell? And they're like, well, what you just said doesn't have anything to do with reality. But okay.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 9:30
Well, that just there's been some recent reports out of the government that they're, they're saying that there are unidentified objects being reported by Navy pilots and things like that. They're actually admitting to this. But the key idea here is that it's literally an unidentified object. It's not saying it's a UFO with little green men in it. But that's where people's minds automatically jump to. Yeah, but the connections together, you really

Scott Benner 9:51
only have to read the first three sentences of anything that the government said or the news story to realize that what they're telling you is there's something moving around We think, and we're not sure what it is. Thank you. What a revelation.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 10:06
These things are funny though, because if you look back in history back before their aircraft, you know, people, when people see things up in the sky, they thought they were witches or something like that. And so it's all a matter of you know, what our current belief system and society, you know, has in their pop culture views.

Scott Benner 10:22
Yeah, I do love it. When you start hearing people give you reasons, and I'm making air quotes. You can't see me and neither can anybody else. And you're like, I think that's the plot of a movie I saw made is what you just said there. You know, wouldn't it be crazy if this happened? I'm like, I think it did happen. I think Steven Spielberg directed it, I think, I think you're confusing your thoughts with something you've seen before as a child. But nevertheless, and I like I said, honestly, and I'm not just like playing both sides of the argument. If I looked out the window, and a flying saucer landed, and people got off, and I'd be like, Huh, no, Kevin, like, I'm not telling you it couldn't happen. I'm just saying, I love hearing people talk about

David Copeland, Ph.D. 11:00
it really, I think one of the cool things about is that it really connects to my field, because it really kind of illustrates the idea that we don't always see things that are real out there. We over interpret things in our minds, and we place meaning on things that might be very meaningless, because, you know, we want to see patterns, we want to see, you know, make sense of the world. And so we just, we don't like things that were that are just two seemingly random.

Scott Benner 11:28
So I I feel like if I understand correctly, that the concept of sunk cost fallacy can be considered from two pretty specific points of view, right, like, from an economic point of view, an economics point of view, and from a psychological is that about fair?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 11:49
Yeah, and I think I think the two areas, you know, overlap quite a bit. But it's the basic idea of sunk cost fallacy is that we don't necessarily make a decision based on what's logical OR rational, or in our best interest based on the current moment, we also will bring into play factors or behaviors or experiences or things we've done in the past, and bring it into the the current decision. So So yeah, so it's not just a rational, logical computer, you know, making a decision based on the current pieces of information. It's bringing past for lack of a better term baggage into play as well.

Scott Benner 12:29
So is this something that is just the thing you see sometimes in people, or is it just incredibly common amongst everyone?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 12:39
It's, it's actually pretty common. Now. We're in psychology, a lot of times when we talk in generalities, we're talking about patterns that we see. So we test a group of 100 people, and we see this pattern amongst 60 of them or something like that. So. So yeah, we're not saying it's going to happen to each and every person in each and every circumstance. But we're saying it's a pretty common pattern that you see, yeah,

Scott Benner 13:01
you can kind of isn't it interesting to say this before I say the other thing, that you can see something like this in another person, and very, very frequently cannot see it yourself at all?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 13:14
Oh, yeah. We were not the best judge judges of and evaluators of ourselves and our own performance. And in abilities, we tend to be a little bit biased. And it led us to be a little bit more on the optimistic side of things. But, but yeah, we can be a little bit more realistic, and, and I think, unbiased when it comes to looking at other people and evaluating them. So yes, sometimes it's a lot easier to see it in someone else.

Scott Benner 13:45
So I just the generalized, made up example of a sunk cost would be I bought a plane ticket. And I bought boots, and a stick to climb with and a hat to keep the sun out of my eyes. And when I get to the mountain, and it looks like it's going to erupt, I'm still climbing it anyway. Because I put all this effort into getting here when common sense would tell you, this hill you were planning on climbing now looks like a volcano and we should run away.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 14:11
Yeah, I mean, I think you've nailed it on the head that, you know, if you just take in this snapshot of the moment, you're there, you arrive that morning at the mountain, and you're deciding, am I going to climb it? Or am I not going to climb it? The rational choices if it's going to erupt? Or there's horrible weather or whatnot, is to say no, it's not worth it, I might get hurt or even die, you know, in this endeavor. Whereas the sunk cost fallacy basically brings along all these things that you've done beforehand, such as buying those plane tickets, you've invested all this planning all this time, all this all these resources, all this money. And so you said to yourself, I put all this into it, I'm going to do Oh, anyway.

Scott Benner 14:50
So when you notice that the person asking about this wasn't on a teaching website, it was about this is the thing you follow for type one diabetes, which by the way, we'll talk about later and I appreciate your following But did you immediately understand why he asked?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 15:07
For me, it was one of those where I'm thinking to myself, okay, what's, you know, one of the cool parts about a lot of these biases that we talked about within psychology and cognition, is that there are applications to them. Otherwise, it's, you know, what's the point of talking about them, if you if the, you know, if it's not happening in real life, and so so, you know, I'm racking my brain a little bit, you know, thinking myself, okay, what's the application here? What's the kind of perspective here, and so one of the things you look at is, you know, I can see it from a perspective of maybe the approach someone takes to treating diabetes. So for example, maybe they're investing themselves and their time, energy and effort into a certain way of treatment. And then maybe there it comes a point where maybe they learn from someone else, or from their doctors, or from another source, that maybe there's a different way, maybe just even a tweak or a completely different way to to approach things. And they might be hesitant to make a change, because of all the time and energy and effort that they have already put into the prior

Scott Benner 16:13
approach. So yeah, and it for me, it struck me but but I started thinking about, I don't remember why I was thinking about it one day. And I thought, This is what I see with people who have had Type One Diabetes for decades. And it might be that I tried to help a person who had had type one for like, 30 years or more. And they wanted a change. Like they didn't, they couldn't take what was happening anymore. And had reached out to me privately. And I said, I I'd be happy to see if I can say something that, you know, might make sense. And it didn't matter what I said or what I suggested, or how I explained it. It was every time met with No, that won't work, or I can't do that, or this isn't right. And I finally just said, like, you know, you asked me, this is my opinion, like, it's cool. If you don't like it, you know what I mean? Like, I'm alright with if you don't want to do it is I'm not here to push myself on you. I was trying to help. But why can't you make the leap? And it was fascinating, because everything they were doing was leading to these like failures, but they weren't dying, you know what I mean? Like they were existing? Yeah, couldn't break away from it. And

David Copeland, Ph.D. 17:31
I think, you know, what you have coming into play is, you know, can maybe, you know, put, I'm not trying to diagnose it, per se, but I can say, you know, some of the difference

Scott Benner 17:41
is David just got a lot of a lot of electric noise from you. I couldn't hear what you said, What happened there? He said, What comes into play? And then you were gone?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 17:53
Can you hear me now? Yes. Okay. What comes into play here is potentially a number of different biases or heuristics, you know, that, that we you know, identify it from a psychological perspective. You know, there can be something for examples, such as the confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is a big one where we let our prior beliefs influence, you know, what we learn. And so essentially, this is why it's very hard to change people's views on a lot of things. Because when you, for example, teach them something or expose them to new information, if it doesn't fit nicely into their prior worldview, they sort of ignore that new pieces of information, and maybe only pick up the pieces that fit into that prior worldview, okay, and so, so people just basically want to confirm their existing beliefs rather than challenge them. And so, so learning new information or new approach can sometimes threaten that. And so, so that's one of the reasons why people kind of, you know, will dig in their heels, you also have the idea that our brains are somewhat lazy, for lack of a better term. You know, our brains require energy, just like the rest of our body, you know, we don't, if we don't have to, we don't necessarily want to get up and run five miles if we don't have to. And so the, you know, our brains kind of a similar manner, where if it doesn't have to think too hard, it's going to want to think in in very, the path of least resistance, if you will, and usually that's going to be in doing a habit or an approach that you're very familiar with, and you're gonna stick to it.

Scott Benner 19:28
Interesting. So the, the, you can look at a person and they physically appear to you like someone who's like, I'm just not gonna try very hard. This is working well enough. But there's an actual physiological component to that, which is, I don't have to expend too is that to save your energy in case you have to run from a tiger or something, or

David Copeland, Ph.D. 19:47
Yeah, I mean, like I said, it's just kind of an idea of, you know, our bodies just you know, want to, you know, just the same way we conserve energy from running you know, our brains gonna possibly conserve energy from overthinking if it doesn't have to. Wow So, you know, our brains an organ just like any other parts of our body?

Scott Benner 20:04
Is there a cut off where people, generally speaking, Don't Want to learn more? Like what like, because, as you were saying that all I could think was like, why would you want to not hear another idea? Or the truth? Or, you know, or whatever, like, I mean, if I, if I thought something for years that I was, like wrong about, I'd want to hear about it. And I understand it would be uncomfortable for somebody to challenge something, because you probably, I'm assuming your brain starts doing that thing. And you start thinking about kind of subconsciously, all the decisions you've made based off of this idea. How many times have I been wrong in the past, like wanting to not be wrong? Like I get all that, but it is,

David Copeland, Ph.D. 20:44
I think the key idea is they don't think of themselves as wrong, necessarily, because the past behaviors or approaches have been good enough. And so to them, it's like, well, why mess with it? You know, I know what I'm doing here. And a lot of times people have hesitancy about making changes, because they're afraid of they take action to alter their behaviors or alter their approach. And then let's say a problem occurs, they're going to feel really bad that they were the direct cause of it, because they didn't stick to their prior approach is that well, this never would have happened if I just stuck with my old approach.

Scott Benner 21:19
So if we all just keep our hand, our heads buried in the sand, then there's no problem. Wow. And that's how a lot of personal relationships ended up going. Right? Like, nobody wants to talk about anything for fear that it will explode the situation instead of heal it.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 21:33
Yeah, it's more of the thing that why rock the boat because it could create something worse. And you know, but in real reality, you know, if there's data out there that, for example, it shows that maybe that new approach is more probably, from a probability perspective, much more likely to lead to better outcomes. Our brains are most people, you know, don't think in terms of data and probabilities. We're not that good at that. And, you know, we can think that way, if we, you know, put ourselves you know, put our thinking hats on and say, okay, you know, I want to digest the numbers I want to think of from a rational perspective, but that takes a lot of energy and efforts. You made me think of

Scott Benner 22:14
the the idea of Moneyball for data driven baseball training. Like, like, if somebody came up to you and said, Hey, you know, your favorite team is going to try swinging in a different launch angle. Now we're going to see what happens. I don't know why people don't go Hmm, I wonder what would happen if they did that? Let me say, like, why do they feel so much? like no, you can't change that. That's not what baseball is. And like, I don't know, just understanding the angle your bats at versus not understanding the angle your bats that doesn't change baseball, again, might change your approach. And maybe you'd find out later that it doesn't work for you. But I don't understand the the unwillingness to even allow change, it's something that doesn't really impact you even

David Copeland, Ph.D. 22:56
it lets it's really just it, I think it's it's, that's a good, good analogy, because it took a while for other baseball organizations to really switch over into that Moneyball type of a mindset. A lot of teams were very resistant for a while. And even when the you know, the Moneyball team started winning more, they were still, you know, digging in their heels, because this is like, no, my, I've been doing this for years, I know how baseball works. And this is the way I'm going to approach it, I'm going to, you know, we steal bases, we hit for singles, you know, things like that, and we don't get anything, you know, you're not supposed to take walks, you know, those all those types of things, you know, from the old school baseball, that was just how they did it. And that was the approach. And they kind of scoffed at the new ideas, and people who did make the switch benefited from it.

Scott Benner 23:47
And so agreeing that maybe it's agreeing that something that you don't understand might be better makes you obsolete.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 23:55
And then, and, you know, and you know, it's it's a whole new world, in some regards, like I said, the executives in baseball today, they're all looking at things from a analytical perspective, they're crunching the numbers, they're making the decisions about which guys to retain on their team or design a free agency. And, you know, maybe which pitches for pitchers to throw more often and stuff like that. They're using data for that. And, you know, people wouldn't think otherwise nowadays, but you know, 10 2015 years ago, that just wasn't the approach for most individuals. And their worldview was, Oh, no, you don't throw that many curveballs, it's off, you know, fastball and slider, you know, and that's it, you know, or something like that. And you keep your to your to bread and butter pitches and whatnot. And that was just that was the worldview that was the way they viewed the game from that. Those are their core principle values. And if you're going to come in with the data perspective, that was going to change those core values, and people don't want to make that overhaul in their heads.

Scott Benner 24:59
I think That, um, the interesting thing is that they act like it will be the disillusion of the thing they're talking about, like, it will just disappear. But I think I don't, I'm gonna, I'm gonna show here that I didn't go to college in a second. But there's this kind of thought exercise, right? Like if, if you leave ashore on a ship, and through the course of your travel, there's another ship next to you that has all the parts. So every part that your ship is made out of, is on another ship next to you have a spare part ship. And through the travel of your of your, your time, you ended up replacing every part on the ship during the the, you know, the trip, did you arrive in the same ship that you left it? Right and everything? There's a that's a it's like, I'm sure you'd studied that when you were nine, right? What is that? I guess? Yeah. But is it called?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 25:54
Well, it's just the idea of, you know, kind of slow, steady changes. And, you know, and sometimes that is an easier way to do things, especially when people are resistant to overhauling the whole way they approach something, you know, it's kind of like, if it's like that death by 1000 paper cuts kind of an idea. Where if you just make slow, incremental changes that people won't resist, because they seem so small and minor, that you can eventually keep adding on top of each one, you know, each of the previous ones still, eventually you've made significant change. The drawback, too, is it takes a while to do that. And you have to be steady and consistent with it. But but it can be a way to avoid upsetting people who are having their core beliefs challenged, and then resisting it with everything they can, you know, muster.

Scott Benner 26:45
So is the use of I've heard people say that, you know, as far as progress goes, that you're born, you know, there's sort of that like, like, how do you explain it the best like, like everybody thought there'd be peace in the world because of the hippies in the 60s, right. But now the hippies in the 60s all have like $2 million in the bank, and they're getting ready to retire. So they stop their fight somewhere, and they're off doing this other thing. So there's this idea that you have this, this youthful exuberance to change the world through your teens and your early 20s. But then at some point, you make a baby and the baby needs to be safe. And then you sort of, you know, you keep moving down that, that that path until your best interests don't look like things changing or improving. And so you hear people say, Well, yeah, we'll we'll get that fixed when this generation dies off. And they stop resisting it, is that really just how it has to be? it? Well,

David Copeland, Ph.D. 27:47
it doesn't necessarily have to be, you know, that extreme per se. But I think one of the things that, you know, kind of, you know, just kind of fits into this whole, you know, idea that you just described is just the idea that, when we're younger, we don't have so many habits, if you will, or ways of thinking that are so ingrained over decades. Whereas as we grow older, as adults, we start really establishing this, these mindsets and these habits, and these approach ways of approaching issues in life. And we're really ingraining them and as long as they're working good enough, we're gonna stick with them.

Scott Benner 28:23
Yeah, I, I keep myself honest, by listening to rap music, because I am not inclined to enjoy it. And yet my son likes it. And I figure he must know, like, he wouldn't be listening to something that's terrible. And, you know, you always think of like, you know, at some point, I mean, the way I think is, you know, at some point, somebody's parents were yelling at somebody because they were listening to Elvis Presley, right? And then and then it was Pink Floyd. And then it was Aerosmith. And then it was Metallica and Guns and Roses, and that it's whatever it is now. And so I think to myself, to try to keep that muscle limber, I, I listened to pop smoke and other rap.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 29:04
I mean, I think I think what you're getting at with that idea is it's you're really getting at the idea of whether things are unfamiliar to someone, and whether exposure gradually leads to more familiarity to, to an idea. And when you become more familiar with an idea, it's that is It's not scary anymore. You know, when you don't know anything about, you know, know anything about a topic, you know, it can be really scary, you know, if, let's say, for example, the metric system is, you know, something, you know, if for people, you know, 50 years ago, you know, when the when the metric system was, you know, when they're making attempts to you know, convert people to it. Those who were not at all familiar with it, maybe didn't get it at all in their early schooling. Were just like, Oh, hey, what are you talking about metric and I'm using, you know, ounces and you know, pounds and miles per hour, I'm fine with that stuff. Let's not make any changes. Whereas people maybe who have a little more exposure, you know, let's say maybe Our generation where we've grown up, and we learn about grams and kilograms in school and meters. And maybe we're not using that all the time, but at least we're we have more familiarity with it. So we might not be as scared of that type of concept. If everyone, you know, third proposal out there, yeah, let's start making the conversion of metric system really, you'd be like, Oh, well, yeah, I guess I see liter bottles, you know, in the store, you know, not all that. It's not always just gallons. And so you have a little bit more familiarity with something. And so it's a little less scary to you, because you've been exposed to it.

Scott Benner 30:33
I always when I'm imagining endocrinologist hearing the show, I always imagine that it either falls on someone who thinks, Oh, that makes sense, even though it's not what I usually say, let me hear more what you hear from people, or it falls on, you know, the we don't change, this is how I do it. And I don't want to hear anything different. That won't work. And that's, I mean, partially why ash to come on and talk about it's partially because I believe that more endocrinologists are listening to the show. Now, it's partially because I think that people have had type one for many decades might be rigid about new ideas. And it's also about, listen, I want to be in the heads of people who right now are on the cutting edge, like the bleeding edge of how to take care of their diabetes, because I'm telling you all that five years from now, you know, 10 years from now, there's going to be something else, and there's going to be a better way to do it. There's always going to be a better way. And you I am in my heart, I want to I want to know the better way, as long as I can. Like, you know what I mean? Like, don't get me wrong. If I'm at five at one point, I'm like, Listen, I got to stick with this music player, because this new thing you kids got, that's a hologram. I can't make my fingers work. Like I'll stop at some point. But But I just think you need to, for your health. Stay on the edge of what this is?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 32:00
Well, yeah, and I think the the 85 year old example is kind of a good one, too. Because maybe at that age, you want those well established patterns and habits, you know, because if you're showing any type of cognitive decline, you don't want to, you know, to be sitting there thinking, Oh, what was this new approach is that, you know, do I do this, that or this, you know, and you don't want them overthinking it, and forgetting, you know, important steps, and maybe just following that routine is good for them. But for people younger, yeah, I think an openness to new experiences can be a very good thing. You had mentioned doctors as well. And I think there's two important perspectives to take on that. Number one, doctors can be just like the rest of us, they can, you know, cling to that prior worldview, those previous beliefs that they maybe learned earlier, and they, you know, hold their ground and stick to those even when there's new evidence out there. And then another perspective is, and this is something I'm seeing more, you know, in college classes is I'm seeing more pre med students taking psychology classes, because of the emphasis that they can have great advice, but if they don't take human nature and human, you know, psychology into account, they might not convince us or convey teach us how to do things in a way in which we're actually going to follow through and do that. I mean, a doctor can tell a patient Yeah, you need to lose weight. That doesn't mean the patient's gonna go home and lose weight, they have to present that to them in a way that's going to motivate them and get them to actually implement a plan.

Scott Benner 33:28
Yeah, so it's not just enough? Well, that's really something I brought up with. One of the psychologists that I had on the show recently might not be out yet. I'm not sure. Where I said, like, it's nice that we're getting together and talking about this stuff. But you know, most people don't put it into practice, right? Like, it's, it's, it became popular because of the internet, like, I'll get together, and I'll give you the 10 steps to make your sex life better. You know, like that started back in magazines. And you know, I'll do this, it doesn't mean somebody reads and goes, Oh, yeah, I'll do all these things. I do want my sex life to be better. Like, it's not how it happens. And when these things get more and more difficult, I think sometimes these conversations can serve to make people feel worse instead of help them because they're like, Oh, so you're telling me there is an answer. And I'm not taking it. And so it makes you feel like not only you're doing something wrong, but then somebody gave you the answer, and you ignored it, you almost feel like you're doing it wrong twice. So the idea, you know what I mean, the idea of getting someone to something is much more important than the something out if that makes sense.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 34:31
Well, and it's part of it, too, is Yeah, people just won't typically just change on a whim. They're like, you give them piece of information. They're Okay, I'll change you know, I'm there. And you're like, oh, wow, that was easy. It doesn't really work like that. Typically, you have to have the individual want or really want or need to make a change in order to really follow through, they need that little you know, kind of motivation to it. And, you know, and also you got to make it easy on an individual. You know, if there's There are barriers in the way you like, you know, it's like the whole idea of like with weight loss, if you still fill your fridge up with, you know, cookies and cakes and ice cream, you know, you're gonna walk past that fridge in the kitchen, and you might have the belief that, hey, I'm going to lose weight. But you know, that barrier of it being right there in front of you, you know, as the temptation is probably going to be too much to pass up. So you really have to get it to the point where someone really wants to make that change that, hey, you know, what, what I'm doing is good enough. But this could be really significant better. And I want to make, you know, improve my health, or my child's health to the point where I'm going to follow through and, you know, expose myself to these new ideas and implement them, right,

Scott Benner 35:43
sort of the, the people get kind of caught up in kind of that zero sum thinking, I guess, where, like, I have an idea, my ideas, the idea. There's no other idea, like, leave me alone. That's the end of it. I mean, when we see it, I mean, listen, I don't care what side of the argument you're on politically, you're, we're all being manipulated. And I'm not saying it like, it's some, you know, like, there's UFOs, what I'm saying is that, that it's marketing, right, everything is marketing. As soon as someone figured out marketing, we were all in trouble. Because Because someone figured out to say something to you, or to choose something from your childhood, or to you know, ignite one of those, those fires inside of you, that makes you defend an idea because you think baseball is going to be ruined by something. And then people who are trying to get you to cast a vote or buy a soft drink or something like that can reach into your brains and, and drive you in a direction that that you might not want to be in, if you were left on your own to stand at the mountain and say, Okay, I'm here, it was my intention to climb up the mountain, but it's on fire. So I'm going to go home.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 36:58
And that's one of the interesting things about that topic. And that issue is that you can use those powers for good or bad if you you know, depending on your perspective, you know, if you think of, for example, marketing, or maybe even tech companies, how they make our smartphones, so addictive nowadays, you know, you would say, okay, they're using those powers for evil, if you will. But we can use a lot of those same principles for good, when you're talking about changing our behaviors, you know, a lot of the things, for example, with their smartphones is based on very simplistic behavioral types of issues such as like, you know, like our, our smartphones almost work like slot machines, if you will, in that you get random bouts of force alert, or some kind of new new announcement or something like that from one of your apps. And by doing that, it makes it more addictive. And you can't put it down just like someone who's at a slot machine. And every once in a while it gives you a when you get that victory, and it once makes you keep going. And so so yeah, you have those little things. And we can use some of the same things with us. Like, for example, one simple thing you can do with when you're trying to change your own behavior, is if you successfully do it, reward yourself, you know, give yourself a simple reward, you know, for doing something, you know, do something that you've always wanted to do, or make a purchase you wanted to make or go on a trip or whatever it was, and your bed, essentially, it's just like, you know, giving that dog a treat after they successfully rolled over. You're doing it to yourself, you're basically rewarding yourself and increasing the odds, you're gonna do it again. Hmm.

Scott Benner 38:29
So take the way that that manufacturer manipulates you and manipulate yourself to do something good.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 38:37
Yeah, that's me, it's almost as simple as that. I mean, obviously, they're using algorithms and, you know, and in technology tools to to implement that. But But yeah, you know, we can do this, you know, similar basic things in our own lives.

Scott Benner 38:53
I guess that's what a chore chart is for a kid, right? Like, you fill in the line. And when you get to the end, you take a toy out of the thing or whatever, you get to go somewhere to a restaurant or whatever it ends up being. And so yeah,

David Copeland, Ph.D. 39:03
we'd like for my daughter, you know, in this over the past year, we were dealing with potty training, you know, and we were debating about well, you know, how do we you know, reward the behavior to, you know, to encourage it, and, you know, is one of those where, okay, well, you know, she's she has, you know, type one. And so do we use candy? Do we use, you know, like a toy we don't What is it? Essentially, regardless of what it is, it just needs to be something of value that the person is going to see is you know, a reward that's going to reinforce the behavior,

Scott Benner 39:31
you make me think of this person that I spoke of earlier, when I said to them, Look, if you if you do this, then you won't have the same outcome. And they were just so sure that it was going to go wrong. They almost kind of they skip to the end without trying the thing. And I'm wondering now, if there was, I mean, it's an adult like, I don't know how you would incentivize an adult in that situation, but there has to be something you know, you know, I'm jumping around here a little bit, but

David Copeland, Ph.D. 40:01
I think i think i think one thing from from your perspective is you have to understand is that not ever, ever, not everyone is exposed to the ideas or the information is going to make a change, because there's so many people out there who are fine with their current good enough approach, that it's just from the get go, there's a percentage of people who aren't even going to be receptive to it, they might think it's a good idea, but they're just not even gonna apply it to their own lives. It's kind of that other percentage that you're really dealing with.

Scott Benner 40:29
Yeah, and when it's a personal thing, I honestly, if I'm being honest, I don't care. Like if you're on a path to something that's not as good as it could be. And you're happy with that, like, right on, like, I'm fine with that. I don't care. I don't, I don't pretend to want to manipulate people into having a different outcome. But if you're sitting there thinking, This isn't right. But I don't know how to break free of it, that feels sad to me, you know, the edifice, and

David Copeland, Ph.D. 40:57
I think it's just, you know, the person has to want to make the change, or in some cases even need to make the change, you know, and the need comes more from there's something really wrong with the current approach. And, you know, it could be somebody who's just hitting too many lows, or, you know, staying up 300 too much, or something like that. And then it turns into, you know, a need at that point, you know, it's like, you can tell someone you know, who's smoking, you know, oh, you need to quit smoking, it could lead to cancer, you need to quit smoking leads to cancer, you tell them year after year, if they visit their doctor, and they don't see it as a need, because they don't have cancer, but then maybe one time they get diagnosed with cancer, and the doctor is like, Listen, seriously, you need to quit smoking at this point. And now suddenly, they're a little bit more motivated to actually try something else.

Scott Benner 41:41
So have you heard me say, I think anecdotally, I have not spoken to enough people who have changed their health, be for another person, that I'm almost positive that that's what happens to people. Like, if you can't do it for yourself, you could do it for a child, or for a spouse, like I've just met too many people who said, You know, I decided to get my blood sugar's together when I met this woman, or this man, because I suddenly could picture a long life with somebody, or I didn't really care until I had a baby. And then I realized I needed to be here for the baby. Like is that I mean, from your perspective, and from your, your learning is that a real thing that happens to people,

David Copeland, Ph.D. 42:28
there are certain things in the world that can be very strong motivators. And you know, you know, politicians have learned that, you know, instilling fear in people can be a very strong motivator, in some cases to get them voting certain ways. But as you noted, to, you know, caring for someone can be an also an extremely powerful motivator. I think a lot of people when they're single, maybe you know, and childless, will kind of maybe write it off, you know, but then once you become a parent, you know, it kind of it's, you know, there's a, you know, lights a flash in your head that suddenly that little person in your life is extremely important. And you're willing to do anything for that person. Yeah.

Scott Benner 43:06
I don't mean to jump around, but I feel like I have you here now. So anxiety is at an all time high in society. Is that fair to say?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 43:15
I don't know if I'd say all time high. But I'd say that, I'd say the pandemic is probably triggered, and maybe exacerbated some aspects of it. Yeah. Do you buy into the the idea

Scott Benner 43:25
that we have nothing to do with our focus? Because life is easier. And so smaller and smaller things? Feel like the worst thing that's ever happened to us?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 43:38
Yeah, there, I mean, there's something to the fact that focusing and thinking too hard on on certain issues can cause anxiety. I think one of the big things about his anxiety is when we feel that it's outside of our control, is that's a really big kind of contributor to anxiety. And when we're able to, you know, exhibit some control over a situation or change an approach where we do have control and we can make changes to it. Yeah, a lot of cases you do see anxiety decrease a little bit in there. I don't want to talk too much on you know, making claims there because I'm not a I touch on anxiety in some of my the areas that I research, but it's not, you know, kind of the focus of what I do.

Scott Benner 44:24
No, that's fine. I just I listen, the what I can confirm that I know fits in a thimble. Okay. But it's hard to imagine that we went from people who like won World War Two to, you know, a friend of mine that I had in high school I haven't seen in 30 years said something a little cross on Facebook, and I think it was directed at me and now I'm melting down. Like it's a weird it's a weird shift in a short amount of time and less that used to exist and I just not aware of it because I didn't live at that point.

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David Copeland, Ph.D. 46:15
Well, I think one of the things we have to look at is that, you know, fields such as psychology are relatively new in terms of their emergence, you know, we're talking, you know, 20th century and 20. Now, 21st century, and, you know, we have no real data besides anecdotes or stories, you know, from his store from history, as to what really was going on in the past, and they're very well could be lots of cases of, you know, of high anxious individuals, you know, throughout history, but we didn't really have measures and, you know, there weren't, you know, psychologists around, you know, to really study it, you know,

Scott Benner 46:51
is that the natural progression of healing, then, like you're hiding it, and then a generation learns to let it out. And then another generation learns to deal with it, like, is it not? Is it your sort of your piece of building the bigger fabric of society, like, maybe we're all not going to get the fix that thing for us, but we're moving the whole group forward?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 47:16
Well, I think I think what happens is when when a topic or an idea is, you know, kind of in his infancy, and people don't know much about it, we use techniques that we think work, and they could be superstitious types of things that you try out, or maybe were passed down, you know, from family members. And, you know, they seem to work or seem to do the job. So you do it. But it takes, you know, kind of a field to emerge to really start investigating a topic and exploring it and putting these ideas to the test to say, Hey, is this effective? What about this versus that which one's more effective? And, you know, then maybe you start tweaking the techniques to say, Oh, this one works. But what if you tried this, you know, changing part aids to a one or something like that. And now suddenly, you have a new approach to it. And the more people you have that are investigating exploring topics, you know, the more likely people are going to throw out new and innovative, you know, solutions to it.

Scott Benner 48:11
Well, so there's no sort of back to where I said to the therapist earlier, that, you know, I feel bad, because you're pointing out, we're pointing these things out. But there's no tried and true way. Like there's no steps one through 10 that make this better, like you, you know, your therapist usually says, go to therapy and talk it out. And maybe you can get through it. Which seems like the best at the at the moment. But what do you do when it's something like? I mean, the stuff we've been talking about confirmation bias, sunk cost fallacy, like how do you stop yourself from doing those things, especially if you don't even know you're doing them?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 48:47
I think one of the first things are to know are that psychologies, psychologists, and psychology professors, and researchers, have been shown to be susceptible to some of these things as well, maybe not to the same extent as the general public, but it is measurable. And so sometimes, you know, you get a chuckle out of it, like, Oh, this study investigated the confirmation bias with psychology professors versus the general population, right. And, you know, this, the psychology professors actually showed too. And so it's one of those things where it's human nature, but I think there are ways to minimize it. And part of the ways to do it are to start becoming aware of some of these things, you know, start understanding that, yeah, there are different ways to make decisions. And yes, I can be influenced by my prior beliefs, prior experiences or emotions. And maybe I need to just sit there and think about right now, in this moment going forward, what are the pros and cons of going down path a versus path B, you know, regardless of what happened beforehand, you know, you can learn you know about these types of approaches and you can make improvements.

Scott Benner 49:53
I have to say that one of the more difficult things that I've done is to say settle on an idea and put it out into the world. Because I am most of the time of the, the opinion that the thought I have is the best thought I could come up with. But it doesn't mean there's not a better thought and more likely there might be one. And I keep looking for one of my one of my favorite exercise, like, you know, thought exercises, is to try to imagine what lies beyond what I don't understand. I and

David Copeland, Ph.D. 50:29
I enjoy. And I think that I think that perspective is, you know, a great way to, you know, to approach things because, you know, one of the things you want to do is you want to tell yourself that there might be approaches, and there might be people out there learning things that are different and possibly better than what I know about. And now of course, it's very important to to take into account the source of information, especially with, you know, you know, what we've seen, you know, in recent years where people are using, you know, social media or YouTube videos as their exclusive news sources, you know, you want to ideally be using things that have been tested, where there's some data behind it, you know, where it's coming from, you know, somebody who's studied it, and it has some expertise in the topic. You just don't want to take, you know, advice, you know, from your neighbor, Bob, or something like that, you know, just because Bob said, so that must be true. Yeah. So So yeah, you have to take the source involved, as well. But I think it is a good first step to realize that my knowledge, my information might not be perfect. There might be some better ideas out there.

Scott Benner 51:31
I saw what you just use such a nice, like, example, you're like, you know, I believe Bob, but maybe there's more beyond Bob, I was like, literally thinking like Flat Earth conspiracy. Like what you said that, like I I'm fascinated that, and if anybody's listening who believes the earth is flat, you can still get diabetes, like, stuff for me, but I think you're wrong. And I think there's enough examples of why your might be wrong to to get me in that camp. But what makes someone want to believe it so fervently, because I have to tell you, David, I believe the world is a sphere. Yes, but I don't have enough Karen, that I don't have a dog in that fight enough to get into an argument with you about it. I can only be like, I if you said to me, it's flat. I'd be like, ah, alright, man. Yeah, I couldn't sit here and work myself up over that. But you could but what you don't mean,

David Copeland, Ph.D. 52:27
but I think what you're what you're kind of conveying in there is, is something that emerges is that, you know, whether or not that person believes that the world is flat, or that it's more of a, you know, sphere or round, you know, object is that, ultimately, in their day to day life, 99.9% of the time, that belief, regardless of which one they have doesn't matter so much. You know, they're, you know, the only time it might as if they stop themselves from travel, do taking a long trip, because they think they're gonna go over the edge, you know, or something like that. But, but other than that, you know, that belief really isn't going to have an effect on their day to day life. And so, so yeah, so I think I think your idea there were, your choice to not engage on that particular one is probably a good one, because it really doesn't have that big of an effect. Whereas maybe something was someone's house, that could have a big major effect.

Scott Benner 53:20
I even think about when I started the series within the podcast about how people eat, I got notes from people, like you can't do that there's going to be big arguments as like, first of all, I don't care. And secondly, like, I don't think there's really big arguments, I think that we, we do this thing where we we've told ourselves if if you're on the internet, right, or if you're on Twitter, or Facebook or Instagram, we we've convinced ourselves that that's everyone's opinion. And it's really a fairly small percentage of the people on the planet are even on social media. So there are there are things happening online right now that people online believe are the most important thing in the world that most of the people on the planet are completely unaware of, and could not possibly care less about.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 54:12
Oh, yeah. I mean, we we have a very egocentric worldview in that we we think our own interests, and our own beliefs are the most important things in the world. And and yeah, and we we emphasize and elevate that and projected on other people and think that they also are going to highly value those beliefs in those perspectives and those topics right and so so yeah, we think those sorts of things. But yeah, it really a lot of it goes back into you know, digging our heels into our own current belief system. And you know, you can present for example, you can present people all the you know, all this evidence that, you know, drinking heavily in smoking isn't good for a long lifespan. But if they have a belief that that doesn't matter, they're going to find that one example of their you know, Aunt Karen, you know, who smokes like a chimney and live to be 90 Six years old. Yeah. And they're gonna say, you know, see, look, look at aunt Karen there, that scene doesn't matter.

Scott Benner 55:04
You know, it's, that's the same, the same muscle that gets used for people are like, I don't want to dig in and get a real job because I might be Kanye West one day or Drake or, you know, the best. The, I don't know, the the best softball player in the world or whatever you're trying to be like it, you know, you need to realize that those people are are an anomaly. Like right there, they're a collection of luck, hard work, you know, more luck in maybe how their body works, if they can sing or run or whatever it is they can do. And you're only aware of them, because of the way social media works now, right? Like, even 25 years ago, you didn't know how much money like a wide receiver made, that that was not not even something you were aware of.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 55:53
And, and a lot of it too, is just depends on what's valued at the time, you know, that, you know, 100 200 years ago, nobody would care if you could dunk a basketball. Yeah, but now, you know, that's, it's a popular sport, that's entertaining. And so if you can do that, you're you know, you're gonna, you can make yourself millions of dollars, right. So, you know, it all really matters, what is valued by people and what they want. So,

Scott Benner 56:17
I have a question that you might or may not have input on, but why is it comfortable to pick someone out in the world, who you deem as not as smart as you not as good as you are? not as popular? not as successful? Like, why does it? Why do we like to find things that were better than? I mean, did I just get out myself? Nobody else thinks that way. I'm not saying I feel like that all the time. I do see people do it. Like, yeah, it's, it's pretty, it's,

David Copeland, Ph.D. 56:51
you know, I think it's fairly common. And I think I think it can be a boost one's ego and their confidence. And, you know, no one ever wants to, you know, feel like the the kid you know, picked last gym class, you know, because they're, they're not as good and not as talented. Everyone wants to feel like they're good, they have you know, skills and they can do something better than each other. And, and part of it also in this kind of bleeds into the, you know, the social psychology world to where we like to categorize the world into groups. And, you know, we have our in group of people who are like us, and we have the out group of people who are not like us, and things associated with our in group are all positive and good, and we like, and things associated with the other groups are bad and different.

Scott Benner 57:33
That's where that's the fascinating thing about watching people argue about how they eat when they have diabetes, like that, like, I think in the end, everybody's saying the same thing. Like I, I found a way to do this thing that leads to stability and health and happiness. And they can't just be happy that they found it, and it's working for them, anybody who's not doing it, they feel like they want to ram it down the other person's throat. But you only see that online, it doesn't exist in the real world. I've never seen two type ones meet each other in the real world, and be like, I'm low carb, and the other ones say, I'm not and then they have a fistfight like that. It doesn't it. So what happens online? Why do people feel so confident? To be so aggressive with their ideas online?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 58:21
Yeah, I think of them as like keyboard warriors, or, you know, kind of cyber bullies in the sense. But it's, it's really one of the big things about it is it's the feeling of being anonymous when you're online. And, you know, researchers speculated for a while there that that's why, for example, messageboards, for a while, we're just random people making comments. And then eventually they switch them where you have to log in with your Facebook ID, you know, to make a comment, because they thought, oh, adding your name, and you know, Facebook identity to it is going to make people feel a little less anonymous, and maybe slow it down. And I don't remember seeing any data as to whether that had a major effect, or not. But my impression is that it hasn't had that big of an effect. Because I think just hiding behind the keyboard, people feel a little bit more anonymous. I usually, you know, when I talk about this, this idea with students, I usually use the example of you know, driving versus pushing your shopping cart in the grocery store. You know, when you're driving on the highway, you're gonna see people left and right, you know, cutting in line or cutting other people off. And in the car, you're anonymous, you know, nobody really sees your face, you're gonna drive away, they're never gonna see you. But in the grocery store, you're not going to be you know, standing there right in front of the checkout line and have another person just cut you off and go in front of you. Because they're right there in front of you, you know, face to face. And so there's, you know, you lose that level of being anonymous in that circumstance.

Scott Benner 59:46
But do you agree with maybe you won't agree with what I'm about to say, but I don't think people in a personal situation like the grocery store, I don't think they're having thoughts like, Oh, I'm going to get in front of you. I'm going to cut you off. I want to win. That seems to go away. When the anonymity goes away, like even the desire

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:00:03
does, though. Yeah, and I think that's just the the, the the whole lack of or presence of anonymity, you know, can just alter how you approach the whole situation.

Scott Benner 1:00:14
Yeah, in a second I am. I try very hard to apply that. The, the concept from it was a god, what's his name? Hold on a second. Isn't it funny I think about this constantly. And his name is David. David Foster. Wallace was a writer, he I think he committed suicide many years ago. But he he gave a speech at a college commencement. And it's, it's available now you can read it online or buying the book for him, or I think you can hear him on YouTube still, but it's called This is water. And at one point during it, he makes this point that has stuck with me forever, that the, these aren't his words, but here's the idea, like someone will cut you off in traffic, and they're a jerk. And maybe most of the people that cut you off in traffic are a jerk, but one of them has to go to the bathroom really badly. So what would it hurt for you to just imagine that every time you get cut off somebody who's in a dire situation, they really need to go, where they're going? And like, what would it hurt you to just believe the best in people. And I

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:01:21
know that that's another egg angle that a lot of people we make assumptions, you know, very easily. And part of is just because we don't, we're dealing with incomplete information about the world around us and every other person been. So it's as easy for that's why we make stereotypes and stuff like that, too. But yeah, we're drawing assumptions all the time. And we're just going with what's the easiest, you know, assumption that pops in my head. And typically, like, when you're driving, it's the fact that the person's a jerk, right, you know, and trying to cause you harm. Whereas like you said, it's very easily could be a case where someone's having, you know, a bathroom emergency or something else, right?

Scott Benner 1:01:57
I'm about to go do something horrible. And a Burger King, you got to get out of my way. And well, not only do you fill it in with the easiest answer, but I do think it's part of the other thing that I said, where you fill it in with the answer that makes you feel superior to

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:02:12
Yeah, and, you know, especially when you think, you know, you think of the other drivers as the outgroup. You know, there are others you don't know who they are, they're, they're definitely a part of your in group. Bad Guys, and

Scott Benner 1:02:23
good guys, I boy, I was talking about this with my son this morning. I don't want to say it's a family issue, because then if they hear it, they might know but, you know, let's say people I know that aren't in my house. And there's this one person that everything they talk about, they want the story to be there, the good guy, and there are other people and those people are bad guys. And, and when the bad guys aren't there, they'll make them. Because they don't seem comfortable when there's no drama. Like what makes people comfortable with x. I

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:02:58
think I think one of the big things is we always try to present ourselves in the best possible way. Because we want other people to like us and you know, we want to make connections, you know, we're humans are social beings. And, you know, we want to make connections, and we want to have friends and, and good family relations. And so we want to and we we think in our perspective, that always presenting ourselves as good and positive and having, you know, you know, making the right decisions on things, you know, is the best way to do that. And so so we're not very good at always admitting fault.

Scott Benner 1:03:33
So if I don't feel good about myself, the next best thing is to make everyone else look under me. So I rise up. In Yeah, that's definitely can be a coping mechanism. Wow, people are so screwed up. I'm gonna have more and more therapists and psychologists and people who think about stuff like this on the podcast, because I, I'm fascinated by all this. And, and, and back to the original point. You know, it's funny, because I just wanted to talk about sunk cost fallacy because I think that people can get too invested in how they take care of their health, and that might keep them from seeing other stuff. But then you brought up confirmation bias, and I was like, This conversation is going to be terrific. So I'm having a very good time talking to you. Can I? Are there ways for me to see my biases?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:04:24
I think the simple answer is to recognize that we are not perfect and we don't have all the answers and that ways that we're doing things could be good or acceptable, but maybe not the best. And I think just simply telling yourself that, you know, is, you know, kind of a very good starting point. You know, a lot of philosophers you know, will state that, you know, a high sign of intelligence is admitting that you don't know something and being able to utter that phrase, I don't know. Because because too many people are Afraid of looking, admitting that in that scent making them seem unintelligent. And so maybe they you know, give some kind of other answer confidently even though it might not be the correct answer.

Scott Benner 1:05:12
Well, let me say this because I made it because I'm trying to be funny. I'm not sure if the next thing I'm going to tell you if I was right about or not. But I found myself recently talking to an 18 year old with type one. And this person wanted to wants to do something with their life, they have a goal, right? And they're struggling right now with their blood sugar's, they're probably just not paying quite enough attention to it. It's not a big misunderstanding that they're having. And I don't know what happened, I was maybe having a day. And I was trying to squeeze some things in. And so I'm talking to this person, while I'm on my way to see something else. And maybe my day was getting away from me, I wasn't as focused on being maybe the person that you hear on the podcast all the time. And I just said to them, Look, if you keep doing what you're doing, now, you're going to get to this thing that you want to do later. And you might fail at it. And you're going to want to blame the diabetes. But the truth is, it's going to be your fault. And I thought, like, as soon as I said it, I was like, Wow, it was harsh, like, I shouldn't have said that, like that. But I went back over it again. And I niced it up, and I said it again. But as I must have thought about it for hours afterwards. And I was right. Like they put if this person would put a tiny bit of effort in right now, to kind of tighten up a couple of ideas and get these things working, then this next goal in their life would would go so much more easily, and they'd have a great chance of success with it.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:06:49
But and you know what I mean, in the end, I think what you're getting at is a little bit of an idea called the attribution error of when, you know, when I make a mistake, it's due to some external circumstance, you know, affecting me, you know, it's somebody else's fault. So, you know, so to speak, where is if someone else, you know, you know, messes up, then it's something about themselves, they screwed it up, but, you know, kind of an idea. And so I think it really gets back to is that wheat as kind of a coping mechanism, again, you know, for our confidence is we don't like to admit, we're wrong, you know, and, you know, when you know, something goes wrong, we like to put the blame on other things, or other people, and it wasn't ourselves that really, you know, could have done better.

Scott Benner 1:07:33
Yeah, it's, you know, listen, I, I don't, I'm not saying I don't do those things, I want everybody to understand that I don't think David's saying he doesn't do things like this either. But being aware that they exist, is your only real chance to get ahead of them at some point. Otherwise, you know, your life could end up being a series of, you know, things that happen that you think are decisions that might be a lot less about your decision and a lot more about how you feel about yourself, based on what somebody said to you, when you were 10 years old, or you know, that kind of stuff, like I don't want, I don't want to feel like I'm being drugged through life by that kind of randomness. And I just wanted to pick an episode to talk about it here. So maybe other people could have a chance to see their biases and, and stop themselves from getting caught in repetitive decisions that are not the best that they could be for them.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:08:30
But yeah, and you know, part of it is that, you know, if you're perfectly fine of envisioning yourself five years from now in the exact same patterns that you're in now, and you're happy with that, maybe maybe you're good, maybe you just stick with what you're doing. Yeah. But if you want to picture yourself in five to 10 years as living an improved life, then you probably have to make some steps to to make some changes so that you aren't doing the exact same things and making the same patterns in your life. And so that you can make progress. And you have to understand that it is possible when you make change, that hey, maybe things you know, you can have some problem run into some problems. That's okay. Maybe you don't do it well enough. Or you don't learn quick enough. And hey, that's okay. We're allowed to fail in life. You know, people think that, you know, sometimes it's unacceptable. But people who are they tried something out, it didn't work, you know, so then I tried something new.

Scott Benner 1:09:24
Yeah. Is that why we break everything down into like these little like slogans so that everybody can wrap their heads around them? Like, you know, people will love to tell you that. millionaires have gone bankrupt like three times before they became millionaires, which is a nice way of saying don't give up.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:09:38
Yeah, essentially, it is. The problem with it is it's typically an empty phrase to most people, because most people don't think too deeply about it or just, you know, don't don't

Scott Benner 1:09:49
go back to themselves. Yeah, no, I don't. I've never once thought I'll have a million dollars one day, but I guess I would think most people don't feel that way. But that that That does become the problem is that these things are so they're so empty that they they'll ring true for a moment, but then you can't hear the bells anymore. You know, you're like, Oh, that makes sense. And then it's gone. And yeah,

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:10:10
like the Nike slogan, just do it is great in terms of, you know, inciting people to take action to you know, make a change or, you know, do something in their lives. But we've heard it so often Now. Now. It's just this random slogan that just bounces off our ears when we hear it. It's super

Scott Benner 1:10:24
exciting, right till I jump up in the air and realize I can't get anywhere near the rim. It reminds me of when my son was super young, he might have been seven or eight years old, his friend is at bat at a baseball game. And the kid's father stands up and yells his name and the kid grabs his attention as he's like getting into the batter's box and says, just hit the ball. And the kid stopped and what? Oh, thanks. Yeah, that was not valuable advice. If it was that easy. A baseball wouldn't be fun to watch and be everyone would be amazing at it. I didn't know I just had to hit it. I appreciate you're doing this with me. And I do wonder if you'll tell me if you think I'm well, if you listen to this, and then tell me what you think. But I don't believe that everybody needs to go out and change themselves. I don't believe anybody has to. But I do think that if people were self reflective, they would change. I don't know if it would be better or worse for them that I can't say. But it would be different. And it would be progress of some sort. Do you think it's odd that I wanted to put this episode into this podcast? You listen to the podcast?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:11:35
Yeah, I don't think it's odd at all, I think I think one of the things to understand is that people work in different in different paces. And different people are different in terms of their willingness to try new things, their motivations, their goals, they're wanting to make change themselves. And so I think if people are fine, where they're at, then, then as long as they're getting good enough results, then they can do that. That's their choice. But some people will kind of hope they had better results, but aren't, you know, but that hope isn't enough to get them to make a change. And you hope those individuals can start to see that there is some psychology to this and that, we have to recognize that a you have to get yourself to really want to make the changes, you know, step number one, and then number two, you have to tell yourself that, hey, what I believe in what I'm doing might not be the best ultimate, you know, way of doing things and way of believing things. And maybe I should go out there and listen to other pieces of advice the best, especially from things, ideas coming from experts, and people who have tried them out and found great success with it, I always just think it's been specific focus to diabetes, I just always think find somebody who's doing it better than you and find out what they know that you don't know.

Scott Benner 1:12:51
Like, that just makes sense to me. Like if you're having trouble keeping your blood sugar stable, like, you know, go find somebody that doesn't like see that as hopeful instead of instead of them making you feel bad about it, which is, which is a thing i abrasca guess I don't think that sharing success makes people feel badly. I think sharing success gives people can give them hope they can choose to feel bad about it, I guess if they want but but the idea is pure,

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:13:16
you know, again, if that information isn't out there at all, then there's not a chance at all that they're going to try something because because then they don't have any ideas because

Scott Benner 1:13:25
of what I said earlier, which is you can't imagine what lies beyond your understanding. Right, so you can watch your blood sugar spike up after a meal, and then crash back down again. But if you don't understand what Pre-Bolus means, if you don't understand how to make your Basal insulin, right, then this is just this thing that happens to you every day, it's just the thing that is happening to you. And if you don't have the words to put to it, or the tools to fix it with, then all you're left with is the idea of like, I know this isn't right, but I don't know what to do next.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:14:00
Well yeah, and then at that point, you might just try it through trial and error, try something and by chance it might work you know, and sometimes it could be an effective tool. Other times it could just be random that it just you know you did something and adjust your insulin, you know, regimes just happened to work that day and so you think that this random thing that you did works, but if it's not an effective tool that a lot of other people are using and and you and you don't know about it, then odds are you're not going to stumble upon

Scott Benner 1:14:26
it yourself. Or you might just give up and believe believe it to be unconquerable I saw someone today say something about my blood sugar goes up but then it comes back down. I know my body I know it's gonna do that. And I read that and I did not have the time to respond. But what I wanted to say was is this has very likely little to do with your body and what you know about it and a lot more to do about the fact that your insulin is probably not set up, right.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:14:53
Oh, yeah. And when when they think it's an evident when a person thinks is inevitable. It's kind of related to an idea like a learned helplessness It's like an idea of when you think no matter what I'm going to do, it's not going to fix anything, you kind of give up. And but when the reality there might be some real tools out

Scott Benner 1:15:10
there, but I think if people feel that way, if you're listening and you find yourself feeling that way, I mean, I get that that would be a gut punch for a second, if what David just said, you're like, Oh, god, that's what I do, like, you know, but now, you know, don't do it. Yeah,

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:15:25
that's where if you can hear examples of people, you know, succeeding in overcoming that problem, exposing people to that, then that can, you know, give them inspiration, give them hope to that there is a method out there they can try. Cool.

Scott Benner 1:15:37
Alright, so I'm gonna Thank you for coming on. But I want to ask you one last question before I let you go. So do you listen enough to the podcast that you have a vibe for it?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:15:46
I've listened to a handful episodes, I've gone through different sources, you know, with citizen books or conversations with their endocrinologist.

Scott Benner 1:15:55
So you feel but but I'm talking about just me specifically, like the thing I'm laying out like, do you have a grasp of what I'm doing? Yes. Okay. So is it hard for you, when you're listening to something like this with your background? to not see what I'm, how am I want to ask the S? Do you see how I'm trying to help people along? And is it hard for you to listen to something when that when there's a secondary thing happening that a lot of people are listening to don't hear, and maybe you don't know what I'm talking about? I'm interested to know.

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:16:28
I think I think that providing the information out there is it in its of itself is a way to do it. And I think another thing that's very important is that it's got to be presented in a way there that people want to, you know, listen to it, you know, you if you present it, you could you know, very well present all this information in a very dull, like scientific conference way of just like reading something in a very monotone voice. But if you make something a little bit interesting, you know, add some story to it, then you're actually going to get people's attention to it. And it actually make them want to listen, and that and people want stories,

Scott Benner 1:17:06
right? Like that's Yes, sir, very much. It's a very human thing. I just, I always wonder like, I wonder if a person like you, like, it's almost like sitting in school again, after being through like, the first time you go through you, you just think you're having this experience. And the second time you go through, you're like, oh, the teachers getting me somewhere there there on purpose, moving me from where I am to this other place?

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:17:29
Well, it kind of gets the idea of when you don't know anything about a topic, most people shy away from it and call it boring, or you know, something that they're not interested in. But as you get exposed and learn more and more about a topic, you'll find people actually develop an interest and sometimes even a passion toward it. And so it's a really kind of an interesting thing. So when you have the availability, the resources out there for people to continue learning, once you kind of snowball up that, you know, knowledge base, then people can really get into it.

Scott Benner 1:18:01
Alright, I appreciate your time. I greatly thank you so much for doing this. You did it kind of on short notice even and I'm gonna put it out pretty soon. So I'm excited about it. Is there anything you want to share with people I know, we were for four seconds, we're like, My daughter has diabetes. And then we were like, jump right into this. But is there anything diabetes wise? I never usually asked at the end. But is there anything about diabetes, you want to talk about that? We didn't? Ah,

David Copeland, Ph.D. 1:18:26
I think just like anyone else, I'm, you know, continuously learning about this. And I think it really to bring it back to one of the points that you'd mentioned earlier. You know, I think that I care more about it, because it's with, you know, an issue with my daughter than even if I think of it was about me. And so I think it's one of those types of things where it's, you know, being a parent makes it you know, a little bit more motivating, even for me to learn more and more about this, this particular topic, and to, to improve, because I want her to live a fantastic life. Yeah. Oh,

Scott Benner 1:19:03
God. Well, what's your Cheers to that, that's a that's a great way to end. Thank you very much. And thank you for inviting me. A huge thanks to David for coming on the show and sharing his expertise with us. I'd also like to thank touched by type one, who you can of course find at touched by type one.org on Facebook, and Instagram. And I just want to remind you one last time, head over to T one d exchange.org. forward slash juicebox. fill out the survey. If you're a US resident, and you have type one diabetes, or you're the caregiver of a child with type one, it won't take but a few minutes, it'll benefit the podcast and it will benefit everyone living with Type One Diabetes even you.

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