#1302 I Don't Understand... Arden One

September 10, 2024Scott Benner

Arden and Scott try to figure out what a blind person sees.

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DISCLAIMER: This text is the output of AI based transcribing from an audio recording. Although the transcription is largely accurate, in some cases it is incomplete or inaccurate due to inaudible passages or transcription errors and should not be treated as an authoritative record. Nothing that you read here constitutes advice medical or otherwise. Always consult with a healthcare professional before making changes to a healthcare plan.

Scott Benner 0:00
Hello friends and welcome to another episode of The juicebox podcast.

If you're subscribed to the podcast, you may have heard Jenny and I do a couple of episodes called I don't understand where we just pop on with no preparation and talk about things that we don't get. We sometimes use the internet to fill in the gaps, or sometimes just chat back and forth and see if we can make sense of it. That idea for those episodes actually came from an idea that my daughter and I had to make a podcast by ourselves. But instead of making a whole podcast, we thought we would just record it and put it here for you guys. These are not diabetes topics. It's a long list of things that Arden and I don't understand, and we're just chatting about them trying to figure them out. You know, it's pretty lighthearted and easygoing. We use Google our conversations and chatgpt to try to figure out the things that we don't understand. Nothing you hear on the juicebox podcast should be considered advice medical or otherwise, always consult a physician before making any changes to your healthcare plan. Don't forget to save 40% off of your entire order at cozy earth.com All you have to do is use the offer code juicebox at checkout. That's juicebox at checkout to save 40 percent@cozyearth.com

this episode of The juicebox podcast is sponsored by the Eversense CGM. Eversense is going to let you break away from some of the CGM norms you may be accustomed to. No more weekly or biweekly hassles of sensor changes. Never again will you be able to accidentally bump your sensor off. You won't have to carry around CGM supplies and worrying about your adhesive lasting. Well, that's the thing of the past ever since cgm.com/juicebox this episode of The juicebox podcast is sponsored by us med. US med.com/juice box, or call 888-721-1514, US med is where my daughter gets her diabetes supplies from, and you could too use the link or number to get your free benefits check and get started today with us. Met. This show is sponsored today by the glucagon that my daughter carries, gvoke hypopen. Find out more at gvoke glucagon.com forward slash juice box, Whose idea was

Arden Benner 2:39
this, not mine. I'll tell you that. No,

Scott Benner 2:41
I don't mean you doing a podcast. I mean the idea of the podcast, like the theme was this, me. Was it me?

Unknown Speaker 2:49
Yeah, I

Scott Benner 2:50
came up with this brilliant, brilliant, brilliant brain. Let's explain to people why we're here. You frequently don't know things this

Arden Benner 3:02
is a really bad on my part, like I'm waiting for a transfer to accept me. I'm waiting for a school to allow me in. Do

Scott Benner 3:10
you think they'll hear this and not let

Arden Benner 3:15
you? No, I don't think that's a really long list of things you put up there.

Scott Benner 3:18
I don't think you see our list. You made that list.

Arden Benner 3:20
I didn't make that list. No, that's a lot of your things. No, those are not all my things. Mine was like half of that, some of

Scott Benner 3:27
your things, yeah, and Cole put some things on there. Why is he on there? Because he he came up with things and he put stuff on there. I don't like that. So the idea here is that a lot of times, well, where should I start? You're a very bright person, but the things you don't understand are shocking. And a lot of times you'll just say, I don't understand, and then you'll say something I don't expect, like, money.

Arden Benner 4:01
It's the education system.

Scott Benner 4:02
That's what we're blaming Yes, okay, 100% so let's go over our list. Because this is the first episode. Let's go over our list here that we're working from. This is a a loose first season list of our podcast together, which is going to be called, I don't understand. Wait.

Arden Benner 4:20
Why are we letting the list out? You don't think we should tell people what's on the list? No,

Scott Benner 4:25
make them come back later to find out what else is on the

Arden Benner 4:28
list. Yeah, because if you tell them, they're just gonna go

Scott Benner 4:30
look it up. Oh, we don't want Oh, in case, while they're listening, they don't understand either. Yeah. So the idea is we're gonna pick something off the list every time we record, and we're going to figure out first of all through conversation, if you and I can figure out what the thing is, and then we're going to look it up. We're going to use chat, GPT, 4.0 to help us the rest of the way. We'll also use the regular old internet. Then we'll figure it out together. I. Feel like this is good. This is like, what schools should be. And our goal here is for you to never again say,

Arden Benner 5:09
Well, that won't happen. But sure, I think I'm just a curious person.

Scott Benner 5:14
It's not just it's curiosity, yeah, but, but when you say to me, for instance, I don't understand what Wi Fi is.

Arden Benner 5:24
By the way, you're gonna realize a lot of the world doesn't understand Wi Fi. They just know that you have to find the word on you have to go to Settings and click on Wi Fi and connect to whatever the word is, and you're supposed to click and put the password in, and that's all they know. Oh,

Scott Benner 5:39
the best part of this podcast is going to be hearing you describe things. That's what you think Wi Fi is. No, I

Arden Benner 5:47
don't know what Wi Fi is. I

Scott Benner 5:48
know, but that's a different episode. That's not today. I

Arden Benner 5:51
don't know what today is.

Scott Benner 5:52
Well, let's go over it. Well, no, should we start with something serious? Because I've gone over this list with a couple of people who have said, like, well, I don't understand that either. Like, you asked me why there's only a two party system in politics. No,

Arden Benner 6:10
I did not. Oh, that was Coles, yes, that I was the one who who answered that question. Actually,

Scott Benner 6:15
okay, that one was Coles, I apologize. Well, let's then, let's start with. Well, here's one that's definitely you Oh God. And I think we should dig right into it. Is it the fingernails? Is that where you want to start? No,

Arden Benner 6:30
I think that's I thought that's what you were gonna say.

Scott Benner 6:31
I was gonna say your question that you put on the list that reads, what blind people see.

Arden Benner 6:38
I don't this one's so crazy. Okay,

Scott Benner 6:41
you don't understand what

Arden Benner 6:42
you don't either, by the way. Well,

Scott Benner 6:44
I'm not blind. Well,

Arden Benner 6:45
I am not either.

Scott Benner 6:47
I'm just saying so the question is, is a person who's like, legally, completely blind, right? Yeah, not like, can sort of see or see shapes or something, you're talking about a person who's just completely blind, yeah, is their brain interpreting data? Okay,

Arden Benner 7:05
this is what I don't understand. I can't get it. So I was listening to someone talk who is completely blind, and my thought was that all they see is like when we close our eyes, what we see when we close our eyes, which is like, just black, basically.

Scott Benner 7:21
But what is black?

Arden Benner 7:25
It's just like, not like, it's space. It's just like, nothing, basically, but you're still seeing something, yeah, but like, you're see, like, that's what I'm saying, right? So I just, I don't know why. I always thought that that would be the answer, but then I heard them say, No, I literally don't see anything, and I'm just like, I don't understand how that's physically possible.

Scott Benner 7:45
What does that mean? Yeah. Okay, now before we dig into it too, far as you know, from a conversation that I used to have with your friend Tanja, that would freak her out,

Arden Benner 7:55
what black is the absence of light? Yeah, I

Scott Benner 7:59
know it's the absence of light, yeah, but I think we need to dig into that first, because I know that that's true, but I don't understand what that means. Do you Well, yeah? Like, well, so like, red as a color, yeah?

Arden Benner 8:14
Well, isn't it true that every color, like, if you're looking at a color, it's actually, technically every color but the one you see.

Scott Benner 8:23
Okay, so there's another question, how, how is it that we interpret like what? No Color is true. So color only looks like it looks because of how our eyes work. I

Arden Benner 8:33
think so. I think it's something like that. I think it's like when you're looking at stuff, it's actually every color but the color you can see. I don't even understand what you just said. I know I saw that online.

Scott Benner 8:43
Okay, hold on a second. All right, we're gonna go, we're going to the internet that because that's got me a little freaked out. Let me get I got a little set up over here. It's a little different than when I make the podcast usually. Um, so our first question is, How do humans interpret color, is that? Right? I

Arden Benner 9:06
don't even know what I said. I

Scott Benner 9:07
gotta tell you right now, when you don't understand what you're asking, you really don't understand what you're asking. Okay? So the eye structure, light enters the eye through the cornea and the clear front surface of the eye, the clear front surface of the eye. It then passes through the pupil and adjusts and the adjustable opening controlled by the iris. Okay, just tell me where the pupil is. Wait. We don't care about this. The lens focuses light onto the retina, the light sensitive layer on the back of the eye. I think we do care about this by the time we get to the end. Okay, so photo transduction. When light hits the cones, what's a cone? When light hits the cones, it triggers a chemical reaction that converts the light into an electrical signal. Those electrical signals are transmitted to the brain via the OPT. Nerve so then you don't have to be able to see to get the signals, because could a blind person not get those signals generated?

Arden Benner 10:10
Whatever you just said makes no sense to me. Here's what I do know. Okay,

Scott Benner 10:14
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Arden Benner 12:50
Everything you just said does not answer the question. I

Scott Benner 12:52
just had tell me your question again,

Arden Benner 12:54
is it true that when I'm looking at something red, say that the object is technically every color but red. Oh, it's like absorbing every color but red, or something like that. Like, I think that's how it works.

Scott Benner 13:15
I'm glad I could be so wrong. What if this thing just goes what? Dumbass, What

Arden Benner 13:21
the Did you just what did you

Scott Benner 13:22
hear that on tick? Tock, you moron. Hold on. Actually, what it says, yes, yes, that's correct. When you see a red object, it appears red because it reflects the red wavelengths of light and absorbs other wavelengths. Yes, that's what I'm saying. Would you like a more detailed explanation?

Arden Benner 13:40
It's right there. Read it because the

Scott Benner 13:43
Overlord looking at it, that is chatgpt, seems to understand how color reflection works under white light. It says white light, such as sunlight, is composed of multiple colors of light, each with different wavelengths, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet. Yeah, it's like the rainbow. Sorry, my brain just did that commercial Taste the rainbow? What is that? Skittles? It's Skittles. Okay. When white light hits an object, this object's surface interacts with the light the surface can absorb, reflect or transmit different wavelengths. I don't under a red object appears red because its surface reflects the red wavelengths of light and absorbs most of the other wavelengths, blue, green, etc. And the example here is a red apple. When white light shines on a red apple, the apple skin reflects the red wavelengths of light into your eyes. How do it know that the apple's red, though. Oh, wait,

Arden Benner 14:41
wait, this segues into another thing that I've been thinking about for so long. I asked people about it. No one wants to talk to me. Don't

Scott Benner 14:46
forget that we're actually here to figure out what blind people say. No,

Arden Benner 14:50
I feel like this really adds to the whole conversation. Okay, so I've always said I'm sure other people think this too, but the people I talk to don't care. How do we know? Know that, like, we're all seeing the same color because we have the same name for something, but that does not mean that we're looking at the same thing. So like, we we're like, in kindergarten or preschool, we go there, they hold up little signs or whatever that say, like, blue, purple, red, and we're all looking at the same sign. So we're all told that whatever color is in front of us right now, for the rest of our lives. It is called this. That's what has this name to it, okay, but there is no way to confirm that we are all looking at the same exact color, like your red could be my green. Oh, okay,

Scott Benner 15:31
that's freaking me out, but you, I think you're right. So what's our question here?

Arden Benner 15:35
No, this is not a chat GTP thing. It's just like because it there's no way to know the answer to this. We cannot see through each other's eyes.

Scott Benner 15:45
Yeah? But wait, because when someone's colorblind, they see the world completely differently than a person who's not colorblind, yeah. So you're saying along those same lines, it's possible that I'm interpreting that green, for example, differently than you're interpreting it, yes,

Arden Benner 16:00
like this is we both agree that this color is green, but that's only because we were taught that whatever it is we're looking at right now, we were shown the same image and told that it was the color green. Oh,

Scott Benner 16:13
so you're not just saying that I might be seeing a slightly different version of green. You're saying it's possible you I could be seeing green and you could be seeing my version of purple, yes. What color do I look to you? Oh, let's

Arden Benner 16:25
not get into that.

Scott Benner 16:28
But okay, well, how we figure that out? Well, what is a colorblind person? Wait, okay, let's go to Color So, wait,

Arden Benner 16:38
wait, pause, colorblind. I don't know if I completely understand it, but I think for some people, it's like when they mix the colors up or something, or you kind of see stuff that's like more so gray, like a tint of gray, or something, okay,

Scott Benner 16:53
but

Unknown Speaker 16:55
oh god,

Scott Benner 16:56
colorblindness, also known as color vision deficiency. Did you run out of words?

Arden Benner 17:01
I'm already done.

Scott Benner 17:02
It's a you're done.

Arden Benner 17:04
I'm done this series.

Scott Benner 17:06
Hey, hope you've enjoyed this. That's been the end of I don't know. It's a condition where a person's ability to perceive colors is different from what most people see. What

Arden Benner 17:15
if they're in the right

Scott Benner 17:18
I see what you're saying, like, what if this is a simulation kind of thing, yeah. So there, apparently there's red, green color blindness, and there's, there's kinds of Jesus, there's like, four different kinds of that, and there's blue, yellow color blindness. There seems to be two of those. And a complete color blindness, which is monochromacy, there's one of those. Well, there's a lot of words here.

Arden Benner 17:39
I definitely wait start over. All right,

Scott Benner 17:41
so I'm gonna butcher these words. Okay, you go. I'll fix them. Protanopia, absence of red cones. People cannot perceive red light, making reds appear dark and blending with green or brown.

Arden Benner 17:53
Yeah, red and green. See, I told you, that's really one of the things that people wrote. Hana Molly

Scott Benner 17:58
reduced sensitivity to red, red, orange and yellow appear greener, and colors are less bright, and then deuteron looks like Deuteronomy, but it's deuteronopy, absence of green cones. People cannot perceive green light, making greens appear as beige or brown. This is what I said. Deuter anomaly reduce sensitivity to green. Greens and yellows are shifted towards red. Holy God making who figured this all out? Like, How did someone see how?

Arden Benner 18:28
That's what I'm saying. How can they see what? Like, you know what I'm saying, yeah.

Scott Benner 18:33
How do we know any of this is true if we can't see through each other's eyes.

Arden Benner 18:46
Wow, that was poetry.

Scott Benner 18:48
Thank you. Oh, it is nice, isn't it seems like a Beatles song in there somewhere. Understanding how we perceive color and diagnosing color blindness involves several scientific methods and tools that allow us to objectively measure and understand these phenomena. Oh, thank

Arden Benner 19:01
God. We're not the scientist. I

Scott Benner 19:03
know. I say all the time I was on the Mayflower, we'd all live, like, 150 yards from the ocean, because I would, like, the first thing I got to and I would have been like, I don't know how to get around that. We got to live here, and that would be the end of it. Do you think you'd be able to, like, traverse a new land?

Arden Benner 19:21
Are you being serious? Look at me. I have a paranormal blanket wrapped around my shoulders.

Scott Benner 19:28
Everybody should have a paranormal blanket. Color vision test, oh, my God, there's we're not, we're not going through these. But brain imaging, controlled studies, retinal imaging, DNA analysis, animal law school. Can

Arden Benner 19:44
I stop you? Yes, I disagree with this completely. You disagree with with science right now, because we just, you just cannot see what other people see. It's that simple.

Scott Benner 19:54
So no matter what the science like like, I'm sure

Arden Benner 19:58
that's true, okay? But. Yes, it just doesn't make any sense, because you can't really see what other people are seeing. Well,

Scott Benner 20:03
it says there's even ways they cross validate it, to get consistent results, to get subjective reporting, technology confirmation. It sounds like they've tried really hard to describe what colorblindness. No, I'm sure they have okay. But then we have, then I think we have to ask, what are cones? Wait, no, I

Arden Benner 20:22
want to, I want to figure this one out. Wait,

Scott Benner 20:24
wait, we don't understand this yet. Cones.

Arden Benner 20:29
You just asked it, what cones are? You don't understand it. No, I

Scott Benner 20:32
when light enters the eye, it hits the cones.

Arden Benner 20:36
I think the cone is the cone, not like what covers your eye, like the little bit, like, if you look to the side, like, the little bit that sticks out that's kind of clear, is that the cone that, like, you would place, like a contact on your eye, no, I think that's the or is the cone does, isn't, like in your iris, like it goes back, like, isn't actually deep. It's like a hole, right? The

Scott Benner 20:55
problem is the cone is sort of like the inside of a camera, and we don't understand how a camera works either. That's on our list. Yeah. Light enters the eye and hits the cone. It triggers a chemical reaction in the Jesus photo, pigments, opsins, with the cones. That reaction converts light into electrical signals. It's amazing that we can see a goddamn thing. That's crazy. Okay, what was your question that you said we didn't answer. Wait, hold on a second. Wait what? Hold on. Put all of this more simply.

Arden Benner 21:30
Oh, you know what I do and I don't understand what it's saying. I say dumb it down, and it just does it just dumbs it right down. That's usually not enough. I'm usually so confused. I

Scott Benner 21:42
said, Put this more simply, what is colorblindness? Colorblindness is a condition where a person has difficulty distinguishing between certain color and don't dumb it down that far.

Arden Benner 21:53
Said, Okay, idiot,

Scott Benner 21:55
okay, let me go slower. Okay, let's

Arden Benner 21:56
sit you down. This

Scott Benner 21:57
happens because their eyes don't have all the types of cones or color sensitive cells that most people have. Okay, I got it. What did they see? Red, Green. Color blindness. We went through that. How do we know this? There's testing. Why it matters. Color blindness affects how people see the world, and can make some tests, but, but okay, how do those color blind glasses or restore sight? Wait what you've never seen that dude, they

Arden Benner 22:31
don't restore sight. They restore the color. It understands what I mean. Well, it's because, like, mixing colors together, probably, so if you mix like,

Scott Benner 22:40
well, it tells you the lenses are coated with a special optical filter that selectively blocks certain wavelengths of light. Yeah, you're duh. Oh, Wasn't there an episode of new girl about this? No,

Arden Benner 22:51
there was an episode or Winston, like, said he was colorblind. And who was it? Schmidt Nick is like, what color do you think you are? Because His shoes were brown or were green, and they thought he thought they were brown or something,

Scott Benner 23:03
yes, and his clothes are really bad for, like, every season of the show. And then they realized he didn't, he couldn't put his outfits together correctly. Was that not part of it? Something like that? Did they give him the glasses? I think at some point,

Arden Benner 23:17
um, I don't know. I like, I see those on tick tock. Like, they give children the glasses. But I don't know if that was on New Girl.

Scott Benner 23:24
Does that make you cry when they do that? No, it

Arden Benner 23:26
takes a lot to make me cry.

Scott Benner 23:28
I get a little weepy, if they like, well,

Arden Benner 23:31
you know, I could, like, a petal could fall off a flower and he would start crying.

Scott Benner 23:36
Well, like, seriously, when they put the glasses on the kids, it makes me, like, makes me happy. Well, yeah, but I don't cry. Okay? I don't I get weepy. I don't cry like my eyes fill up. Not like I'm not like falling apart. Okay? It tells me who the glasses are, not a cure. Thank you. This episode of The juicebox podcast is sponsored by the only six month wear implantable CGM on the market, and it's very unique. So you go into an office, it's, I've actually seen an insertion done online, like a live one, like, well, they recorded it. The entire video is less than eight minutes long, and they're talking most of the time. The insertion took no time at all, right? So you go into the office, they insert the sensor. Now it's in there and working for six months. You go back six months later, they pop out that one, put in another one, so two office visits a year to get really accurate and consistent CGM data. That's neither here nor there for what I'm trying to say. So this thing's under your skin, right? And you then wear a transmitter over top of it. Transmitters got this nice, gentle silicon adhesive that you change daily. So very little chance of having skin irritations. That's a plus. So you put the transmitter on. It talks to your phone app, tells you your blood sugar, your alerts, your alarms, etc. But if you want to be discreet, for some reason you take the transmitter off. Just comes right off. No like. You know, not like peeling at or having to rub off adhesive just kind of pops right off the silicon stuff really cool, you'll say it. And now you're ready for your big day, whatever that day is. It could be a prom or a wedding, or just a moment when you don't want something hanging on your arm. The Eversense CGM allows you to do that without wasting a sensor, because you just take the transmitter off, and then when you're ready to use it again, you pop it back on. Maybe you just want to take a shower without rocking a sensor with a bar of soap. Just remove the transmitter and put it back on when you're ready. Ever sense? Cgm.com/juicebox, you really should check it

Arden Benner 25:38
out. Okay, so I think you're off track. Personally, I think we need to circle back to this blindness. Okay,

Scott Benner 25:43
okay, so what does a completely

Arden Benner 25:48
because, okay, I don't know how to put this without sounding like a terrible person. Oh, good.

Scott Benner 25:55
Go ahead, if you

Arden Benner 25:59
like, literally can't see anything because you were trying to describe it to me as, like, no input, I think so. Yeah, that's what you were saying. But if that's the case, then the senses that do work on you

Scott Benner 26:15
are like,

Arden Benner 26:18
what you're hearing, your sense of smell, touch, like all that sort of stuff. It's, it reminds me of it like it kind of reminds me of AI a little bit, how, because, you know, in, you know, in Captain America and the Winter

Scott Benner 26:36
Soldier, Captain America and the Winter Soldier go ahead when

Arden Benner 26:39
Steve and Natasha are, like, on the run or whatever, and they go into the facility that's like in New Jersey, and they're they go down to the basement. It's like the computers down there, and it's like the brain of the guy who, like, used to

Scott Benner 26:54
guess work the school, the Nazi guy, yes, and his brain. And they put

Arden Benner 26:58
his brain into a computer or whatever, yes, and he's not really like, he's he, he's like, it's still his brain, like, he's still thinking, like a human, but he just can't see what's going on. Like, it reminds me of that,

Scott Benner 27:12
except, all right, I take your point. A blind person can still feel touch, moving, yeah, obviously, yeah, feel themselves breathe. But

Arden Benner 27:18
I'm saying, like, I just don't understand how you like, what does that mean? Like, oh, I just can't see anything. Like,

Scott Benner 27:27
because is anything black or is anything nothing?

Arden Benner 27:30
But what is nothing, right? That's why. Like, uh, well, this is, like, a really big topic. We'll never, ever talk about this, but that's why, like, the whole idea of, like, where did we come from? Makes no sense to me, because everything comes from nothing, or there's, I guess nothing is the start of everything, or it all comes from something. We don't know what it is, but something has to come from something else, not necessarily. Yes, why? How does it just appear?

Scott Benner 27:57
It just did? No, maybe, maybe it was always there.

Unknown Speaker 28:04
I don't understand that.

Scott Benner 28:05
Where is there? Like, what

Arden Benner 28:07
is going on?

Scott Benner 28:09
See, oh, okay, God, you want to hear what this has to say.

Unknown Speaker 28:12
Not particularly.

Scott Benner 28:13
I'm trying to sit back. But, oh, I made the text bigger, by the way, if you all have a Mac and Chachi, PT, four, Oh, definitely download the app. The app is awesome. The experience of complete of a completely blind person can vary depending on whether they were born blind or lost their sight later in life. People born blind do not have visual memories or references.

Arden Benner 28:36
See, that's so interesting. Do you

Scott Benner 28:39
know what people love to say all the time about you being diagnosed early, what? At least she'll never remember what it was like to not have diabetes. Do you think that's helpful? No, I

Arden Benner 28:48
don't think it's helpful. That makes me really like, Oh, that makes yourself i Yeah, that's unrelated. We'll get into something later. Okay?

Scott Benner 28:57
They rely on their other senses, hearing, touch, smell, taste very good. You got them all right earlier to understand and navigate the world. Now spatial awareness. It says spatial understanding is built through auditory and tactile information, so feeling, touching and hearing sounds bounce off of other things, right? Yeah,

Arden Benner 29:16
a lot of animals are built that way. Bats, bats, well, bats can't see in the light.

Scott Benner 29:24
Wait a minute. What do you mean? Bats can't see in the light. Can't

Arden Benner 29:27
they only see a night,

Scott Benner 29:28
don't they use sonar. That's what I'm saying. All right, we'll get to that. Hold on a second. Should we put that on the list? How do bats fly? No, no. All right, they develop mental maps of their surroundings using sounds, textures and physical movement. All right, that's cool, but that's not what they see. They may also the word see is improper. It's experience. How do you Okay? Here's

Arden Benner 29:54
okay. If you're born blind, they're saying that like you don't have the what? Is it like the images, or whatever that, like other people would experience through time? Yeah, how do you imagine, right?

Scott Benner 30:05
I don't know. Through touch. That makes

Arden Benner 30:09
no sense to me, because, you know how, like, I don't know if you were the one who agreed with me, but someone was saying that. Like, if I say, like, think of an apple, you can't actually picture, like, a real apple.

Scott Benner 30:21
Oh, I don't, I don't. I remember that conversation, but I don't remember that.

Arden Benner 30:25
It was with Liv, and she was like, Oh, I can't picture an apple. But like, if you told me to close my eyes and picture an apple, like, I just see, like, a real apple, and

Scott Benner 30:32
I don't see anything. Yeah, oh, that's right, you're and my brain works also, you have an internal monolog, and I don't, yeah, well, that should be on the list. Hold on a second.

Arden Benner 30:41
No, Dad, do that later. No, but it's gotta we'll forget. Is this gonna get cut out of the podcast? Because I feel you're wasting time.

Scott Benner 30:47
There's plenty of time. It's a podcast. There's time people don't care that much about us. They might. So it's not us. It's about today. It's about what blind people experience, which we haven't gotten to yet. You're taking a while. Come on. Okay, people who become blind later in life retain memories of what things look like. So that's your answer there, like, Well, no,

Arden Benner 31:06
I understand. I'm talking about people who have never been able to see anything in their whole life. That is where I'm at right now, I understand people who have been able to see things and they lost their vision. Okay,

Scott Benner 31:17
so then let's then let's ask. Let's ask. So what if anything does a completely blind person who was born without sight experience in their mind?

Arden Benner 31:40
I feel like you should be asking the question of like, describe it to me as like a metaphor. Okay, well,

Scott Benner 31:47
let's see what it says here, and then that's a good follow up. A completely blind person who was born without sight does not have visual experiences or see in quotes in their mind, in a way that sighted people that we had. Here's an explanation of I mean, like, why is it saying things that are obvious, they do not form visual images, colors or visual scenes. Their mental imagery and experiences are based on other senses. Yeah, I hear that. Do you have access to a person. Oh, you

Arden Benner 32:22
know what you should ask? It to do, draw us a photo of what a blind person sees.

Scott Benner 32:28
Okay, do you have access to a person's description of what they experience having never been able to see? Is it like static? It says there are descriptions available from individuals.

Arden Benner 32:48
Okay, let's go. I want to hear them all right, give their names. Give credit where credit's due.

Scott Benner 32:54
Daniel Kish, this is a personal account. It says for his echolocation skills. Daniel describes how he uses clicking sounds with his tongue and listens to the returning Echo to navigate. Damn. That's impressive. He explain, I walk into walls and I can see everything I think

Arden Benner 33:11
I did yesterday, and I had two cookies in my hand while I was doing that's what I was focused on.

Scott Benner 33:19
You walked so you were trying not to drop your I got home,

Arden Benner 33:22
I went right to the fridge. I grabbed two cookies. I went right upstairs, and I just walked into the wall. Tell people what cookies. I don't even know what they're called, el fudge, double stuff. Wait, it's el fudge. I thought it was elf. Yeah.

Scott Benner 33:37
El fudge. Yeah. But E, E, L, F, fudge. I fudge, wow,

Arden Benner 33:44
never put that together. I never look at that box long enough it's open.

Scott Benner 33:49
It allows him to build a mental map of his surroundings. But what? How does he know which ways? Oh, my God, that means he can click and figure out his orientation in the room. That's impressive. It's like Daredevil, it is, except I don't think he clicks. Uh. Rebecca Atkinson, in her writings, Rebecca describes how she image imagines characters and settings and books through detailed auditory and tactile descriptions. Her experiences of the world is rich with non visual details. It's still not asking our basic question. Yeah, I

Arden Benner 34:21
know. I don't think you're getting an answer to this. That's what I'm saying. Okay,

Scott Benner 34:24
are they seeing black the nothing

Arden Benner 34:33
or no? What? Don't say nothing, because we don't even know what that means. Yeah,

Scott Benner 34:37
I know that, but that's what we're trying to figure out. God, you're going in circles. What are you talking about? We're not we're almost at the end of this. We're figuring it out if you're not not black or dark, the experience is not like seeing black or darkness. It is the absence of visual perception altogether. I don't know what that means. I. OmniPod. Okay, the brain does not receive or process visual signals from the eyes enhance other so I'm going to just ask it this the absence of visual perception altogether. Put that in two simple terms and draw a picture of it, won't it be interesting to see what it thinks it looks like? I just said that. I know you said that. That's why I'm following up on it. We're

Arden Benner 35:29
doing a great while we're reading. It makes you think, like, if, if I said, like, Are you kidding me?

Scott Benner 35:35
That's not a picture like a Ben diner. What it basically did was make a picture of, like somebody. It's a visual description of the whole conversation we've had basically. All

Arden Benner 35:47
right, wait, let me, let's just move on to the what I was gonna say, because that makes me very upset. Okay, when it does something wrong, I like to tell it it's wrong. You say, No, I'll just be like, that's not what I asked. Like today, I asked for a quote from a short story, and it does this thing to me where it just makes up quotes. And then I have to say that is literally not a quote from the story. And it goes, oh, sorry on my error, but it does it every time it cannot quote a story to save its life. Sometimes I

Scott Benner 36:12
ask it to make pictures for the blog, and it just does it over and over again. I'm like, please put their nose on their face. And it goes, Oh, I'll redraw it. Redraws it exactly the same way, yeah. So I said define the absence of visual perception altogether. It means that a person who is born blind does not see any Yeah, I know that's what I think we're done with this. Yeah, we're done so there's no answer. We're never going to know what's really happening. You can't know that. But if you ask a person who is completely blind, been blind since birth, they won't have words to describe it, either, right?

Arden Benner 36:42
Because they've never seen something or experienced something. Like we were all about imagination, and if they don't have imagination, then we can't communicate with each other that way,

Scott Benner 36:54
like we didn't get an answer. Do you think listen, if you're listening and you've been blind since birth, and you'd like to come on and talk about it, please? We'd love to have that conversation. You would do that with me, right? Yeah,

Arden Benner 37:03
it's just, I don't get it. It also makes me think, like, if I said to you, like, imagine being deaf, you like, feel like you can imagine it, but you actually can't, because even when you're hearing nothing, you're hearing something, you hear space and air and everything. So we've never actually heard nothing,

Scott Benner 37:19
right? Even now you're feeling something and you don't realize it, yeah, like you're feeling your clothes, yeah, or your hair, or someone's calling, yeah? Nicole, a phone call. Who is it? Oh, it's Sanj. Go ahead and answer it. Tell her she's on the podcast. Absolutely. Put her on speaker. Tell her we're recording a podcast, and tell her to say, Hey,

Arden Benner 37:39
um, hey, I we're recording a podcast right now. You're gonna probably be featured on

Scott Benner 37:47
it. Yes, you're now a guest star.

Arden Benner 37:52
We were actually, no, you should not follow your Instagram. We were actually just talking about you in the beginning. Oh, my God, wait. I

Scott Benner 37:59
thought we were talking about live in an apple. No, we

Arden Benner 38:01
talked about Sanj in the absence of light. Oh, that's right.

Scott Benner 38:04
Remember that Sanj? Hold that up, Jordan, yeah, I was just calling you to tell you to look at a Tiktok I sent you, and then to read the comments, because it's gonna make you laugh. Okay, well, I'll do that in a little bit. Did you say I love you? Yeah, I

Arden Benner 38:20
say that all the time. Every time we hang up the phone, we say that

Scott Benner 38:22
that's so nice, but tell people you have trouble embracing each other a real in person hug. No, that is not related to this podcast at all. Okay, we can't talk about that. No. Okay, all right. So wait, what were you just saying?

Arden Benner 38:34
I don't know.

Scott Benner 38:39
Okay, so, oh, you were talking about not being we were talking about that something's always touching. You feel something touching you? Well, yeah,

Arden Benner 38:47
oh, like, this doesn't make sense to me, you know, like, you go to the dentist and they, like, put the numbing, whatever in your mouth, or like a shot, and you're like, Oh, I can't feel my mouth, but you you can feel that you can't feel anything.

Scott Benner 38:58
Yeah, it's blocking the the receptors, the pain receptors, yeah,

Arden Benner 39:03
but you can still feel it.

Scott Benner 39:04
Can I say something crazy that you like going to the dentist? Oh, I wasn't gonna say that, but I do like going to the dentist. I sleep through like, root canals, yeah? That's

Arden Benner 39:14
what I was like saying, Yeah, but I hate the dentist. So relaxing.

Scott Benner 39:17
I don't know what about it I find so relaxing, but that's not the point. The point is this, you know, there are microorganisms all over your skin, right? I know, and they're moving, yeah, I know. Do you ever like, get, like, an itch and think that must be one of those little bugs moving around?

Arden Benner 39:33
No, but sometimes my chest hurts and I think I'm gonna die. Wait what I think? I thought you were just talking about feelings we have and what we think is gonna happen. No, but

Scott Benner 39:42
tell me about your thing. Oh,

Arden Benner 39:45
like, sometimes I'll hurt my side, and I'm like, oh,

Unknown Speaker 39:50
like, this is it? Yeah, I'm

Arden Benner 39:51
like, what I

Scott Benner 39:58
was saying is there's like, micro. Was living on you. Sometimes

Arden Benner 40:01
unrelated again, sometimes like something would like, maybe a muscle jumps or something, and I'm so sure a worm is living in me, oh,

Scott Benner 40:09
like in Robert F Kennedy's brain, he had a parasite. It was eating his brain. It's pretty cool. Okay, wait a minute, but I know this has nothing to do with blindness, but, well,

Arden Benner 40:21
I feel like we couldn't get our answer to that, so we had to move on. Can

Scott Benner 40:23
I feel the microbes Stop?

Arden Benner 40:26
Don't ask at that on my skin. What about the fact that, like you okay, you know what? I'll I'll wait.

Scott Benner 40:33
Microbes such as bacteria and viruses are so small they are invisible to the naked eye and too tiny to be felt. Bacteria, for example, typically measure between point two and two micrometers, a micron in diameter, and sensory thresholds. The human skin is sensitive to touch and pressure, but only within a certain range. Microbes are far below the threshold of what human skin can detect, okay, wait, wait, but that means that there's a colony of bugs running around you right now, you're not aware of it.

Arden Benner 41:02
Wait, let's talk about something else.

Scott Benner 41:03
Are we walking on something and it doesn't know we're there? That's what I was just gonna say. Okay, go ahead.

Arden Benner 41:08
Okay, right? So like Earth, we all interact with each other, and we're like a civilization, right? And we do all these things. So is it like that on our body with like, like, are we someone's planet? Yeah, of course, right, yeah. And then your belly is a solar system or for something like biome, like gut biome. And then is that also a solar system for something else? And is it never ending? So

Scott Benner 41:40
what if the planet is just an atom, we're all living on it, and the black space around it is just the inside of a giant's belly? Well,

Arden Benner 41:49
I mean, yeah, sure. I mean, I always thought about that like we're literally just a speck of dust, right on so like that. It's everything's really not that big of a deal.

Scott Benner 41:57
Is it possible that if because the microbe doesn't look up off my elbow and go, Oh, my God, I'm on a giant. It doesn't see anything. It's perception that, because if that was possible, then we'd look up and see what was up there.

Arden Benner 42:13
Um, well, it's not living the same life as you. Yeah.

Scott Benner 42:15
But the expectation here is that if, if there's, if there's a microbe on my skin well,

Arden Benner 42:21
but I'm saying it's not in the same reality you're in. So like, their world might not work the way our world does.

Scott Benner 42:27
You get into some like, like Ant Man and the Fanta. What was that last Yeah, the quantum mania, whatever you make the

Arden Benner 42:35
quantum realm. That is that that was called the movie. I don't really know. It's like, yeah, it's like, Ant Man, quantum, something, something.

Scott Benner 42:41
But I'm saying, like, if, if the if the microbe doesn't know I'm here, then what am I on? And what don't I realize

Arden Benner 42:48
it's not true that we don't know that. Like, space is there?

Scott Benner 42:53
Do you think microbes are shooting rockets up trying to get off of the surface, and they can only get so far?

Arden Benner 42:59
And what if that's like, you're like, Oh, my stomach hurts because the rockets are launching. Yeah, you get a cramp.

Scott Benner 43:07
I'm sure that's not what that is. Okay? All right. So let's go back to our initial question, your initial question, what do blind people see or experience? And do you have any answer to that question? No, so I don't we still don't understand what that is. So say, I don't understand what blind people

Arden Benner 43:24
say, No, I don't have to say such a thing because

Scott Benner 43:27
we need, we need content for our social media. Don't you understand? No, I don't understand. I don't even understand that. Tell people what your nickname is around here.

Arden Benner 43:41
What is my nickname? What

Scott Benner 43:42
are you not? What am I not? Wait, I

Arden Benner 43:45
have a lot of nicknames. I don't know which one you're referring to. When sometimes

Scott Benner 43:48
we say Arden is not, uh oh, you

Arden Benner 43:51
say this. Go ahead. You

Scott Benner 43:51
tell them Arden is not a Word Wizard, because sometimes words confuse her.

Arden Benner 43:55
But I actually made that up. You said they like they caught me. I didn't know what I was saying at one point, and I was like, Oh, I was like, okay, like, I'm not a Word Wizard. And ever since I've said that, like, it gets said every day,

Scott Benner 44:08
all right, Arden's not a Word Wizard. We gotta go. Thanks for listening. Wanna say goodbye, bye.

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